Women’s Contribution to the Ordained Ministry (Church of England)

Helen Goodman Excerpts

Thursday 20th March 2014 Westminster Hall

[Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair this afternoon, Mrs Brooke.

I congratulate the right hon. Member for Meriden (Mrs Spelman) on securing this debate. It is great to have something to celebrate and, given that we have had so many debates in which we have been complaining and anxious about what is going on, it is wholly appropriate also to have a debate to celebrate the good news that is the ordination of women in the Church.

Listening to my right hon. Friend the Member for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw), I realised that I first met him through the Movement for the Ordination of Women at the house of Katharine Rumens, who is an excellent priest in the City of London, as he said. I, too, joined the Movement for the Ordination of Women when I was a student. When I came to London, I ran the Kensington branch with Kate. At some point, Margaret Webster, who by then was the wife of the dean of St Paul’s, decided that we should have London-wide meetings, which took place at 6 o’clock on a Saturday in the crypt. We used to meet monthly, and there might be six or eight people—it did not feel encouraging in the early 1980s, so we knew that this would be a long and slow journey.

In 1994, therefore, for the big service in St Paul’s for the first ordination, I thought, “Well, it starts at 3 o’clock, so if I bowl up at 10 to 3, it’ll be absolutely fine.” I could not have been more wrong. There were 3,000 people queuing several times around the cathedral. I stood in the queue behind a man who said to me, “Oh, I have been involved from the very beginning.” I wonder how many people had their picture of the situation transformed by what happened, and by how happy, pleased and welcoming everyone was about the change once it had happened and we had leapt over that barrier. I therefore agree with the right hon. Member for Meriden that it is good that there will be a service of celebration on 3 May. I hope as many people as possible will be able to go.

The best realisation of our hopes, however, is the work we see women priests doing in their parishes. In my constituency, the excellent Jane Grieve has a rural parish; she does a lot of community development work and has really grown the Church there. In one of the areas of my constituency that has the most problems, we had a priest called Brenda Jones, who struggles against all conflict and is a beacon not just for the Church but for her entire community. Those women have brought something very special to their ministry and have excelled in their roles.

I turn now to the question of whether and when we will take the next step. I should have said before, Mrs Brooke, that my hon. Friend the Member for Washington and Sunderland West (Mrs Hodgson) sends her apologies. She wanted to be here but was not able to attend. We offer our full support to the Second Church Estates Commissioner, the right hon. Member for Banbury (Sir Tony Baldry), in giving the message to the Church that Parliament is not content to see indefinite delay—we are 100% behind him. The decisions taken in the General Synod in February are welcome. We look to the July Synod as the opportunity for us to complete this important legislation. As other hon. Members have said, Archbishop Justin has managed the situation quite brilliantly, showing a deft touch that was clear to us all when he was all too briefly Bishop of Durham. That has made a big difference to what has happened.

I agree that it would be unfortunate if it took a long time to get women bishops on to the Bishops’ Bench in the House of Lords. I am not someone who thinks that we should not have bishops in the House of Lords or that we should disestablish the Church. Bishops play a useful role in our Parliament and our constitution. The sooner we have women on the Bishops’ Bench, the easier it will be to defend—at the moment there is a slight awkwardness in defending that special role for the Church of England.

On the question of whether dioceses should be expected to wait a little longer for a new bishop in order that a woman might be appointed, I was completely opposed 15 months ago during our interregnum in Durham. Now we have Bishop Paul, I think that perhaps other dioceses could manage a little interregnum. Obviously it is extremely difficult for any diocese to have to trade off between managing without a bishop for a long period and having more gender balance in the Church. I hope that the way that the Church manages the ordination of women bishops will be swift enough for that not to be a significant problem for very many dioceses.

Today is a happy occasion. We are all pleased about what has happened. We look forward to the next step and to hearing from the Second Church Estates Commissioner.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sir Tony Baldry]

Yes. I entirely endorse those comments and I think that the House would feel that the Speaker’s Chaplain has done what hopefully chaplains do in every institution. As part of the Church of England, the national Church, they are chaplains to everyone involved in the institution. Rose Hudson-Wilkin has made, and is very much making, the Speaker’s Chaplaincy a chaplaincy for everyone working in the Palace of Westminster. We all saw that particularly when—I think for the first time probably since the Reformation, or indeed ever—the Archbishop of Canterbury came to take holy communion in the Crypt Chapel on Ash Wednesday, and people were present from both Houses and from every walk of life in which people work and serve in Westminster. One felt that this was a community coming together to worship.

Women priests are now involved in every part and aspect of the Church’s life, from Lambeth palace where two of the Archbishop of Canterbury’s close team are women priests, to parish priests up and down the country. As time goes on, I think everyone expects that the proportion of women as cathedral deans and archdeacons will grow.

On Saturday 3 May, to mark and celebrate the 20th anniversary of women as clergy, there will be a gathering of ordained women clergy and others at Westminster abbey in the morning, followed by a procession to St Paul’s cathedral, where there will be a service of celebration for 20 years of women’s ordained ministry. I know that many similar services are planned across the country. For example, on 7 June, the diocese of Oxford—the diocese in which my constituency is situated—is holding a service of celebration in Christ Church.

The diocese of Oxford has always had a strong record of ordaining women, starting with 67 women who were ordained in six separate services in 1994. Of those 67 women who were ordained priests in Oxford 20 years ago, nine are still in active ministry in the diocese and many more, although formally retired, still hold permission to preach and are continuing to support parishes.

Among those first women priests still working full time in the diocese of Oxford, we have a school chaplain, an area dean, who has just been appointed our newest archdeacon, a university college chaplain, and priests in rural and urban parishes. Of the four archdeacons in the diocese of Oxford, three are women, and the diocese has seen women ordained in every sphere of ministry. There are ordained women on the staff of all three theological colleges in the diocese. The military bases in the diocese have had women chaplains, as have prisons and detention centres.

From those first 67 women ordained 20 years ago, there are now more than 250 ordained women currently ministering in the diocese of Oxford, and I am glad to say that many more are coming forward to offer themselves for priestly ministry. Every diocese could tell a similar story of the achievement of women over the past 20 years in ordained ministry. It is appropriate to reflect not only on the significant quantitative contribution over the past 20 years that women have made to ordained ministry, but on the qualitative contributions that women in ordained ministry have made to the life and work of the Church.

It is also important to recognise that there are still challenges. For example, there are still relatively few young women offering themselves for ordination—those coming straight from university—and a significant number of the current women priests are self-supporting; in other words, they are non-stipendiary.

In anticipation of this debate, like my right hon. Friend the Member for Meriden, I wrote to several people asking them whether they felt there were observations I should include in the debate, and one of them was the Speaker’s Chaplain. Rose Hudson-Wilkin made the following observations, and as she is our chaplain, I think they are worth sharing with the House:

“As we go forward, the Church must stop leaving women to feel ‘second best’; We are not tainted and the Church leadership must ensure that they do not embed a theology of taint in their keen desire to embrace all. Women must not suddenly become the scapegoat for all the ills of the Church (e.g. talk of the ‘feminisation of the church’. When we were all male leadership, the numbers of women were still higher than men).

We should not be talking of ‘fast forwarding women’—the reality is that if some of these women had been men, they would have been in senior roles! The Church of England needs to embrace the gifts that men and women bring as the future flourishing of the Church depends on this. All dioceses should look at their senior management team and begin to ask questions about what is preventing women from being included...As a Church, we must embrace unconditionally, the reality that women in Leadership is with us to stay (we should not be using the language of discernment)…I am aware of women who go to challenging parishes with very few people and through sheer dedication and the work of the Holy Spirit, make a difference.”

Not surprisingly, those supportive of women’s ordained ministry have for a long time been supportive of women being consecrated as bishops in the Church of England. As the House will know, this has been a long process, with much debate in the Church and in the General Synod. The process has not been without its setbacks and disappointments for those supportive of women being consecrated as bishops in the Church of England, particularly in the General Synod last November, when the appropriate Measure failed by a very small number of votes in the House of Laity.

Following that, the Archbishop of Canterbury invited Canon David Porter of Coventry cathedral to involve, in a process of dialogue and mediation, various groups in the Church that were concerned about both the theology and the practicalities of women being consecrated as bishops. I would hope that in that process of dialogue and mediation, the concerns of every group, including WATCH and others, were listened to and considered and that efforts were made to resolve them. It resulted in the bringing forward of a much simpler, four-clause Measure, which was overwhelmingly endorsed by the General Synod at its recent February meeting.

The General Synod also agreed that dioceses should have three months in which to decide and report their views on the new Measure. So far, 13 dioceses have met and voted on the new Measure. All have overwhelmingly endorsed the new Measure. Indeed, in the diocese of St Edmundsbury and Ipswich, there was not a single vote against the Measure in any of the houses of the diocese.

Last time, 42 out of 44 dioceses supported the Measure. This time, for practical reasons, it will not be possible for the diocese in Europe to meet in time, but if the majority of the dioceses do support the Measure, it will return to the General Synod in July. I hope that if at that General Synod the Measure succeeds in obtaining two-thirds support in each of the three Houses—the House of Bishops, the House of Clergy and the House of Laity—the Measure can be referred to the Ecclesiastical Committee of both Houses as soon as possible. I am sure that that Committee will want to meet as speedily as possible if and when a Measure comes before it and I hope that, if it finds the Measure expedient and approves it, the Measure can then go before each House separately for approval. Every indication that I have had from my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House of Commons is that the House will do everything to make proper provision for a debate that is as timely as possible when the time arises. I hope that in way we can have the Measure fully and properly considered, approved and passed into law well before Christmas and that we will see the first women bishops consecrated shortly thereafter.

Right hon. and hon. Members have asked about the situation of women in the House of Lords. This House will not be surprised to learn that I have been discussing that issue with the Leader of the House of Lords and the Leader of the House of Commons. Of course, the position of bishops in the House of Lords—the Lords Spiritual—is that they are Members of the House of Lords. It is therefore a question of who is summoned to Parliament. It is not something that can simply be resolved by a Measure of the General Synod; it will require primary legislation. However, I think that it would be fair for me to summarise the position of the Government, as I understand it, thus. In terms of primary legislation, they will seek to facilitate as speedily as possible what the Church of England feels would be most appropriate in these circumstances. I think that discussions are now taking place within the Church of England. I understand that the Lord Bishop of Leicester, who convenes the Lords Spiritual, is in negotiations with various groups to give some thought to how best that can be achieved.

People have to understand that there are suffragan bishops and there are diocesan bishops. Not all the diocesan bishops sit in the House of Lords; some do so on the basis of seniority. Several issues need to be considered, but I am confident that as and when the Church of England comes forward with a proposal, the Government will give it the most serious and positive consideration.

[Helen Goodman]

If and when the proposal is made, Her Majesty’s Opposition will be as co-operative as possible in expediting it.

[Sir Tony Baldry]

That is a very helpful intervention because by definition, given the parliamentary timetable, it is likely to come towards the end of this Parliament and, as all those of us who have been here for some time know, the usual channels, for understandable reasons, tend to get a bit jumpy as we move towards Parliament being prorogued and so on. However, I think that everyone—including my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, who at Prime Minister’s questions made this very clear—wants the consecration of women as bishops to happen at the earliest possible moment and does not want that to be in some way overshadowed by acrimony or a debate about their not being properly represented in the House of Lords.

I make no pretence of seeking to be a theologian, but I have always been struck by the observation of St Paul that

“if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain”.

The resurrection is central and crucial to Christianity, and at the time of the crucifixion, the disciples, for understandable reasons, had fled. It was the women who stood witness to Christ’s crucifixion. It was the women who found that the stone was rolled away, and it was to Mary Magdalene that the resurrected Christ first revealed himself.

I quote from the New Testament:

“Mary stood without at the sepulchre weeping: and as she wept, she stooped down, and looked into the sepulchre,

And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain.

And they say unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? She saith unto them, Because they have taken away my Lord, and I know not where they have laid him.

And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus.

Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.

Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that he had spoken these things unto her.”

The last 20 years have demonstrated that women priests are well able to proclaim the risen Christ throughout the land and, by their ministry, have made and continue to make an enormous contribution to the life of the Church, community and the country. Today’s debate and all right hon. and hon. Members who have contributed, from both sides of the House, have demonstrated and confirmed how much women’s ordained ministry is valued and appreciated.