European Affairs

Heidi Alexander Excerpts

Thursday 15th March 2018 Commons Chamber

[Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab)]

So here we are again. Another day, another debate on Europe—nearly two years after the referendum and at a time when we face enormous challenges both here and abroad. The inescapable truth about Brexit is that our Government are involved in the biggest exercise of reinventing the wheel that this country has ever seen. When a nerve agent has been used in Salisbury to try to kill a former spy, and when we are expelling the largest number of Russian state personnel from our soil for 30 years, I am sure that I am not the only one who regrets that our first foreign policy objective is our departure from the European Union, but we are where we are. Rather than endlessly raking over the referendum, or making the case as to why the public should have a final say on the deal, we need to focus on finding a way through this that limits the damage to our economy, maintains peace in Northern Ireland, protects opportunities for the next generation, and leaves our alliance with the rest of Europe as strong as possible.

We need to start, though, by being honest. If we go out on to the doorstep, we will struggle to find someone who would vote differently in a referendum today from how they voted two years ago. Yes, there might be an increased willingness to listen to a different point of view and, yes, there is an overwhelming sense that the Prime Minister is making a dog’s breakfast of the negotiations, but for all the talk of bringing people together, our country is still divided.

I do not want to live in a country that is dominated by divisions over Brexit for a decade. I do not want to sit in a Parliament that fails to get to grips with the real problems facing this country—housing; how we care for the elderly; how we upskill our population—simply because we are pursuing fantasy trade deals elsewhere. I do not want to listen to any more interminable speeches from Ministers that leave us none the wiser as to what their policy is and which do nothing to clear the fog that exists in Brussels or in the public consciousness here. We have to make this easier for ourselves. We need to cut the complexity, and that means staying in the single market by staying in the European economic area and staying part of a European customs union. The sooner the Government wake up to that fact, the sooner we might make some proper progress.

The Prime Minister bleats on about her deep and special relationship and about her desire for a bespoke deal but, as the clock ticks on, there is no sign of that. Last year, she admitted that she needed more time to sort out future trading arrangements. She calls it an implementation period and Brussels calls it a transition period, but I call it cutting yourself more slack to work out what on earth to do. There is no guarantee that we will get a transition period, but assuming that we do, and assuming Parliament votes for it as part of a skeleton withdrawal agreement—that is a big if—we will be legally out of the EU next year. Our trading arrangements will stay the same until the end of 2020, but what then?

At the moment, this is like reading a seven-year-old’s letter to Father Christmas. We see an unrealistic wish list combined with tantrum-like demands. The Prime Minister wants a customs partnership, but not a customs union. She wants no tariffs on goods traded between the UK and the EU, but does not want to sign up to the common set of standardised tariffs that apply to goods coming into the EU from outside. She does not want a border in Northern Ireland to check where goods have come from and nor does she want one down the Irish Sea. She wants a special tracking system for goods coming into the UK that would then be onward bound for Europe. She talks about technology and authorised economic operators, but the customs experts and freight handlers remain unconvinced.

On the standards that goods would need to meet in order to be sold to the EU, the Prime Minister wants us to sign up to the rules in some areas, but not all, and she wants to reserve the right to change the arrangements in future. She wants to be in some of the regulatory agencies that supervise and enforce the rules, but only if a UK court rules on related matters. Even then, she is not sure whether she wants to be part of just the European Medicines Agency, the European Chemicals Agency and the European Aviation Safety Agency, or if she wants to be part of others, too. She does not have an answer on services, the area in which we enjoy a trade surplus with the EU, but rather talks about creativity and ambition in finding solutions. There is no trade deal anywhere in the world that gets close to guaranteeing the access we have to Europe for our services industry. Our major export to the EU is financial services; Canada’s is pearls and semi-precious metals. The idea that we base our future trading arrangements on a Canadian-style free trade agreement while ruling out being part of the EEA is absolute madness.

I am a London Labour MP, and I sometimes baulk at the obscene wealth that I see on display in our city. However, I also know that the wealthy bankers, lawyers and hedge fund managers not only have money, but spend it. For every one of them, there are probably four or five jobs in events management, hospitality, retail and security, and those jobs are done by my constituents. I cannot bear the thought of our great city losing out to Paris, Frankfurt or New York, but mark my words: if we do not get a good deal on services, over the next 10 years—this will not happen overnight—jobs and economic activity will drift away.

I cannot see how we can get this magical deal. Even if the EU wanted to offer us a good deal on services, the most favoured nation clauses in the trade agreements that are already in place with other countries would mean that whatever the EU gave to us, it would have to offer to others, too. If we stayed in the European economic area, we could get around that.

I do not think that anyone really appreciates the extent to which our country depends on EU labour. It speaks volumes that two years after the referendum, the Government have no answer to what the post-Brexit immigration system will look like. Last week, I met the HR director of a major restaurant group. It has about 300 restaurants in the UK, and I discovered that 61% of its chefs are from the EU. When I walk from Lewisham to Catford, I see huge signs outside small domiciliary care agencies that are desperate for staff, and that is before we even talk about the recruitment and retention crisis in the NHS. I do not know how many times I have to say this, but we have an ageing population. We control immigration from countries that account for 90% of the world’s population. We need people to come here to work. Fewer EU migrants means fewer taxpayers and fewer people spending money in our shops.

I have reflected quite a lot recently on why I care so much about Europe. If I am honest, it is intensely personal. We seem to forget that freedom of movement works two ways. People can come here, but we can also go and live in other European countries. I grew up in a working-class family. My dad is an electrician and my mum is a dinner lady, and I was the first person in my family to go to university. I dreamed of travelling the world when I was young, but I knew that the bank of mum and dad was not an option. I lived for a year in Austria and worked as a holiday rep. I fell in love with the country and ended up married to someone who is half Austrian.

I genuinely feel that the ease with which I could go and live in another European country allowed me to live my dreams. It gave me opportunities, and I do not want the next generation to be denied those opportunities. Anyone listening to Nigel Farage would think that the EU was the preoccupation of the middle classes—it is not. I think that we need to stay in a customs union and in the single market to maintain a close relationship with Europe. We should be prepared to preserve the principle of freedom of movement within that, even if we administer the process slightly differently.

We have to dial down the rhetoric on all this because I worry about where it will all end. Just think of the newspaper front pages that we have seen in the last year. Where do the bellicose language, blame and brinkmanship get us? My grandfather and my husband’s grandfather fought on opposing sides in the second world war. Mine walked across Europe after he was liberated from a prisoner of war camp, and my husband’s absconded from Scandinavia and made his way home to Austria. The borders that criss-cross my family’s history should not go back up, and we should not take opportunities away from the next generation.

We should not fool ourselves into believing that there is a golden economic future without a close relationship with the EU, and the Government need to be honest about that. They need to be honest about the fact that the political choices they have made in the past two years are not automatic consequences of the referendum. They need to rub out their red lines and do the right thing for the economy, the next generation and our place in the world. I believe that that means remaining part of the single market and a customs union.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Baker]

I listened carefully to the words my right hon. Friend used and I am sure the record will show that she referred to EFTA, but I am glad she has clarified that, in saying she supports EFTA, she means EFTA as an EEA member. But I stand by the remarks I just made. I hope she will not mind my saying to her gently that from the perspective of many who want to leave the EU, saying that we want to solve the problems of leaving the EU by staying in the EU’s internal market, with all that that entails for non-member states, and staying within the EU’s customs union, so that we have to accept the EU’s common commercial policy, appears to suggest that we must solve the problems of the EU by, de facto, staying within it. That is how it comes across to many people who wish sincerely to leave the EU. I did listen carefully to her—[Interruption.] The hon. Member for Nottingham East (Mr Leslie) mentions transition, and of course we have set out the case for the implementation period.

I must press on, because I want particularly to pick up a point relating to borders and migration.

[Heidi Alexander]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Baker]

I want to make this point, but if I have time, I will give way to the hon. Lady. Remaining in the EEA agreement would mean having to continue to accept all four freedoms of the single market, including freedom of movement. Although it is true that Liechtenstein has unique arrangements on the movement of people, the UK is in many respects different from Liechtenstein, a country whose population is less than almost every UK constituency. We can safely anticipate that this exemption afforded to a micro-state would not be afforded to the UK.

I very much regret that, with only two minutes to go, I will have dramatically to shorten my speech. On the customs union, Turkey’s customs union with the UK does not cover certain sectors that would be vital to the UK economy and it does not guarantee frictionless trade across the whole economy, because of course a customs union alone does not solve some of the—[Interruption.] Opposition Front Benchers are saying that this is not what they are looking for. They are looking to be in the customs union and remain harmonised with the regulations of the EU—that is the implication of their position. The implication of their position is that they do not wish to leave the EU. They want the EU to control our tariffs. They would be happy for it to control our laws. They would be happy to accept free movement. This is not what people voted for.

We must not lose sight of our ultimate aim to build a new comprehensive partnership that sees us stay the closest of friends and allies. As the Prime Minister has set out, our vision is of a UK that is a champion of free trade, based on a high standard, thriving as a global Britain which forges a bold and ambitious comprehensive economic partnership with our neighbours in the EU and reaches out beyond to foster trade agreements with nations across the globe. As we approach this March Economic Council, both sides in these negotiations have agreed that we want a common fight against terrorism and crime; we want participation and co-operation on research, innovation, culture and education; we want to avoid the absurdities of the interruption of flights; and we want a trade agreement covering all sectors, with zero tariffs on goods and addressing services. We shall succeed.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House has considered European Affairs.

Oral Answers to Questions

Heidi Alexander Excerpts

Tuesday 18th July 2017 Commons Chamber

[The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mel Stride)]

My hon. Friend is entirely right. The large business supplement is a devolved tax matter and the supplement in Scotland is double that in England. The consequences were best summed up by Liz Cameron, the chief executive officer of the Scottish Chambers of Commerce:

“Here in Scotland, we must ensure that we are seen to be the best place in the UK to do business and that will require a fundamental reassessment by the Scottish Government of its tax policies.”

[Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab)]

The Chancellor will know from his own officials’ analysis that the difference between staying in the European economic area and a Canadian-type deal, which is essentially what the Government are now aiming for, is a hit to GDP of £16 billion, which is equivalent to a 4p rise in the basic rate of income tax. How can it not be right to stay in the EEA, at least for transition?

[Mr Philip Hammond]

The hon. Lady is now asking a different question. The Prime Minister has been very clear that Britain is a very large economy in relation to our European neighbours and we would expect to have a bespoke arrangement with the European Union as our long-term future status quo, and indeed a bespoke arrangement for any interim period that is agreed. The hon. Lady is quite right that as we go forward with this process, we need to deliver on our commitment to leave the European, but to do so in a way that protects the British economy, protects British jobs and protects Britain’s prosperity, and that is what we will do.

Budget Resolutions and Economic Situation

Heidi Alexander Excerpts

Monday 13th July 2015 Commons Chamber

[Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Chippenham (Michelle Donelan) on an excellent and engaging maiden speech.

It will come as no surprise to you, Mr Deputy Speaker, that last week’s emergency Budget was not the one that I wanted to hear. It was not the one that many of my constituents wanted to hear either. Although I welcome plans to abolish permanent non-dom status, to fund the NHS and to expand apprenticeships, I cannot say the same for the Government’s rebranding exercise on the minimum wage, the ending of maintenance grants for less well-off students, and some of the changes to tax credits, which are a lifeline for many people in low-paid work.

I wish to focus my remarks on a subject that barely made it into the Chancellor’s speech last week: the supply of new, genuinely affordable homes. Access to affordable housing is the single biggest concern of my constituents. During the election campaign, I lost count of the number of people who spoke to me about their housing problems. There were the young mums outside primary schools in Catford who had been placed in temporary accommodation three hours away from their children’s school; the professional couple in Hither Green who had been renting for years and were simply unable to buy because of the soaring costs of London homes; and the nurse in Blackheath who rents a room in a flat because she cannot even afford a shared ownership property.

The housing market in my south-east London constituency is broken. It may not seem broken to the private landlords, the property developers or the rich overseas investors, but for the vast majority of Londoners, the capital is in the grip of an all-too-real housing crisis —and, let us be honest, it is a crisis. It is a crisis that has been long in the making, but one that deepened under the previous Government. Small changes to the tax relief on buy-to-let mortgages, while welcome, do not amount to the concerted action required from Government on land, on finance and on planning to solve this problem. I wish to speak about the first two of those.

In the past decade, London’s population has grown by 1 million. It will grow by another million over the next 10 years. If the country’s economy is to do well, London needs to do well, and for that to continue we urgently need to get to grips with the capital’s housing problems. The Government must wake up to the fact that homes need to be built where there is most demand for them and where genuinely mixed and sustainable communities can be created. Automatic planning permission on brownfield sites is not the answer. We want places where people will want to live, can afford to live and which will stand the test of time.

When the Chancellor spoke at the launch of the London Land Commission earlier this year, he said that there was nothing inevitable about London growing. He was right about that and he was right to set up the commission with the express purpose of identifying public land for housing development. But the commission cannot just be about high-rise designer apartments on the River Thames; it must be about homes for Londoners. Tackling the under-supply of genuinely affordable housing in London is not a regional priority; it is a national one. The London Land Commission should be identifying public land not so that it can be released to the highest bidder, but so that it can be used to build homes in which Londoners can afford to live.

The Government’s so-called affordable housing, which is let at 80% of market rent, is not affordable to anyone on near-average incomes. All those central London hospital sites, which the Government are so wrongly intent on flogging off, should not become a “reserve currency” for the rich and international jet set—somewhere safe to park their money. Public sites should be used to provide homes for people who keep our city running—our nurses, teachers, policemen and women, shop workers and office cleaners. London will always have hundreds of thousands of people doing those jobs. Many of those jobs will never be the best paid, but those who do them need somewhere secure, accessible and affordable to live. Half of all homes built in London over the next decade should be built by councils and housing associations and be let at 50% of market rent.

Hundreds of thousands of the lowest-paid workers currently live in private rented accommodation in London. Their wages are topped up by in-work housing benefit, which goes straight to the landlord. These people do not live a life of luxury. They often live in relatively poor-quality housing, and worry about the threat of eviction. We, the taxpayer, pay their landlords—via housing benefit—so that they can live in this state of uncertainty. It makes no short-term sense for the individual and their family, and it makes no long-term sense for the public purse either.

In Lewisham, the annual difference paid in housing benefit on a two-bedroom council flat and an equivalent flat in the private rented sector is nearly £9,000. If just one extra family in receipt of full housing benefit in a two-bedroom flat in Lewisham were rehoused in a council home, the revenue saving to the public purse would be £9,000 a year. That is a £9,000 saving for one household in one flat in one of London’s 32 boroughs. Housing benefit is paid on more than a quarter of a million private rented properties in London, costing the taxpayer £2.6 billion each year, up half a billion pounds since 2010.

Every single taxpayer in the country should be interested in the amount of social housing in London. When I came to this House five years ago, I said that one of my priorities would be tackling the chronic under-supply of affordable housing in London. It is clearly not a priority for the Government, but I will not rest until they make it so.

Oral Answers to Questions

Heidi Alexander Excerpts

Tuesday 4th November 2014 Commons Chamber

[Danny Alexander]

I welcome that sort of investment, and I very much agree with what my hon. Friend says. Businesses like that one, in every constituency up and down the country, are creating jobs because they have confidence in the economic policies of this Government.

[Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab)]

4. What estimate Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs has made of the amount of uncollected tax in the last year for which figures are available.

[The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David Gauke)]

HMRC published its latest tax gap estimates on 16 October, and in 2012-13 the gap was estimated at £34 billion—6.8% of total tax due.

[Heidi Alexander]

Thirty-four billion pounds is a very significant amount of money, and under this Government the amount of uncollected tax has risen by £3 billion. Why has the Minister allowed that to happen?

[Mr Gauke]

Let us be clear: a rate of 6.8% is lower than was achieved in any year under the last Labour Government. In addition, HMRC’s yield—the money that has come in as a consequence of its efforts—was £7 billion higher in 2013-14 than it was in 2010-11. The fact is that this Government have an excellent record on dealing with tax avoidance, tax evasion and the tax gap.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Osborne]

The investment by Jaguar Land Rover is very welcome. I was at one of the Jaguar Land Rover plants in September, and saw the incredible investment that is going in there. The new engine plant in the black country is a huge and welcome investment in the west midlands. I take very seriously my hon. Friend’s suggestion that we should talk to authorities in the west midlands to see if we can build on what has been achieved in Greater Manchester. I would be very happy to start those discussions with civic leaders and local MPs.

[Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab)]

T3. Will the Chancellor confirm that the only way to reduce the £1.7 billion bill from the EU and avoid paying interest requires the UK to secure support from a qualified majority of EU members on rule changes and get a vote in the European Parliament on delaying the deadline for payment? How confident is he that he can achieve that?

[Mr Osborne]

We are operating under a tough set of rules. The rules were put in place in 2007.

Oral Answers to Questions

Heidi Alexander Excerpts

Thursday 3rd July 2014 Commons Chamber

[Nicky Morgan]

I certainly will look at that speech—I am afraid I did not have a chance to read it in full before this morning’s Question Time. The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right that one of the tragedies of the situation that has evolved in Nigeria is that the girls who were abducted were doing exactly the right thing—they were in school and taking exams. We absolutely do not want to put girls around the world off their education. The UK remains committed to helping to find the schoolgirls. I shall look at the speech and think about how best to respond.

[Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab)]

2. What steps she is taking to close the gender pay gap.

[Mr Speaker]

I call Minister Jo Swinson. Welcome back, Minister.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Women and Equalities (Jo Swinson)]

Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. It is good to be back. May I place on the record my thanks to my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff Central (Jenny Willott) for the fantastic job she did in covering my maternity leave?

The full-time pay gap has now been almost eliminated for women under the age of 40, but we must close the gap across all ages and for part-time workers. We are promoting transparency through the “Think, Act, Report” initiative. As the pay gap is partly driven by the different sectors and jobs in which men and women work, we are encouraging girls and young women to consider a wider range of careers through the “Your Life” initiative.

[Heidi Alexander]

I, too, welcome the Minister back to her place. The Equal Pay Act 1970 dates back some 44 years, so why does the Minister think that last year the difference between earnings for men and women went up and not down, and why have women in their 20s seen the gender pay gap double since her Government came to power?

[Jo Swinson]

The 0.1% increase in the pay gap in the past year is certainly not a sign of things going in the right direction, although it was a very small increase. The hon. Lady is absolutely right to highlight the fact that 40 years after equal pay legislation, it is not good enough that we still have a pay gap in this country. We need to look at the causes of that pay gap, which might include time out of the workplace. The new flexible working entitlements regime that came in this week will help to change the culture of our workplace. As I mentioned, we need to look at occupational segregation. We also need to look at discrimination and outdated attitudes when women are not being paid the same for the same work. We need to change that, which is why we are working with businesses.

Autumn Statement

Heidi Alexander Excerpts

Thursday 5th December 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Osborne]

I know my hon. Friend has been assiduous in campaigning on behalf of her constituents for us to help with business rates for people running shops on the high street. I believe that she has raised the issue at the last two Prime Minister’s Questions, showing what a champion she is of her local constituency. She can take part of the credit for the measures we have taken today to help the high street.

[Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab)]

We have heard a great deal from Government Members about the economy today, but some might say that it is a huge amount of bluster and bravado that will not square with the reality of life for millions of people up and down the country. Will the Chancellor simply confirm that the economy is now 2.5% smaller than it was before the crisis?

[Mr Osborne]

The economy is smaller because it fell 7%. That is why. It fell in the years 2008 and 2009 when the Labour party was in charge.

Investing in Britain’s Future

Heidi Alexander Excerpts

Thursday 27th June 2013 Commons Chamber

[Danny Alexander]

I am sorry to hear about the experience of the hon. Gentleman’s constituents. The Greater Manchester Combined Authority is actually one of the most innovative in the country. The earn-back deal, which we have confirmed agreement on today, will give those authorities a real incentive to invest in the local economy. I will certainly pass on his specific concerns to BDUK.

[Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab)]

I am afraid that half an hour of windy rhetoric from the Chief Secretary does nothing to make up for the dreadful, short-sighted decisions that this Government took when they first came to power three years ago. If investing in schools and homes is so important to them, why was one of their first actions to axe the Buildings Schools for the Future programme, and why did they cut the national affordable housing programme by 63%?

[Danny Alexander]

If investing in schools and houses was so important to the previous Government, why did they preside over a fall in affordable housing stock of 420,000 and cancel the survey to evaluate the maintenance needs of our country’s schools? It is also about getting the best value for taxpayers’ money, which, frankly, Building Schools for the Future was failing to do in a big way.

Oral Answers to Questions

Heidi Alexander Excerpts

Tuesday 14th May 2013 Commons Chamber

[Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab)]

T5. Can one of the Ministers here today explain exactly how publishing a Bill providing for a European Union referendum in four years’ time will first create jobs, secondly attract investment and thirdly secure Britain’s future in a global economy?

[Danny Alexander]

I do not think that it would achieve any of those objectives, which is why I do not support it.

Autumn Statement

Heidi Alexander Excerpts

Tuesday 29th November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Osborne]

It does. It is an illegal policy, which is a novel thing for an Opposition to advance. As I have said, fuel duty and taxes would be 10p higher if we had not acted in the Budget or in the autumn. [Interruption.] I still have not heard whether the shadow Chancellor supports what we have done on fuel duty. He will probably say yes, but he will not say how he would fund it. As, unfortunately, he did not discover at the Treasury, we must make the sums add up in order to keep the country’s books balanced and ensure that we stay out of a debt storm.

[Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab)]

In the first nine months of this year, on the Chancellor’s watch, long-term youth unemployment in my constituency increased by 192%. I ask the Chancellor this: how can it be right that young people in my constituency are paying the price for the Government’s abject failure to get the economy moving?

[Mr Osborne]

Unfortunately, the young people the hon. Lady refers to are paying the price for the biggest boom and bust in our country’s economic history, which the Government she supported presided over. What this coalition Government are doing is introducing a youth contract to help those people in Lewisham and elsewhere. It will provide work experience after three months for the unemployed, it will require weekly signing on after five months, and it will provide subsidised jobs in the private sector, encouraging businesses to get people into work and offer apprenticeships. In return, it will ask those young people actively to look for work, and there are sanctions if they do not do so. That is what we are offering the young people of Lewisham, who were so badly betrayed by a Labour Government.

Financial Services (South-east London)

Heidi Alexander Excerpts

Friday 18th March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab)]

I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich and Woolwich (Mr Raynsford) on securing this debate. When I first learned about Nationwide’s proposals to close two branches in my constituency, I admit to giving it the benefit of the doubt. Rather naively, I thought that, like many other companies, it was going through difficult times and needed to reduce its overheads. I assumed wrongly that the closures would be a small part of a national rationalisation of branches and that the building society’s customers in south-east London would be treated no differently from anyone else. How wrong I was.

My initial generosity of spirit turned to complete disbelief when I discovered, as my right hon. Friend said, that out of a total of 700 branches across the country, there are 13 closures, seven of which are in south-east London. Two of those branches, in Catford and Blackheath, are in my constituency and two others, in Lewisham and Greenwich, are located within easy walking distance of many of those whom I represent. Hundreds if not thousands of my constituents rely on those branches to do their banking. My constituents may not be buying lots of insurance or putting thousands of pounds into individual savings accounts, but they use their local building society branch to do the sorts of things that people all over the UK do—some to access their bank accounts, others to manage their mortgages.

Why is Nationwide closing a swathe of branches in south-east London? It seems to come down to what are known as transaction patterns. Basically, transaction patterns are not as profitable in south-east London as they are elsewhere. This means that Nationwide, regrettably, sees its customers with a south-east London postcode as something of a drag on its business. Basically, customers who live in south-east London do not make it enough money.

I am sorry to say that when my right hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, Deptford (Joan Ruddock) and I met Nationwide’s group distribution director and suggested to him that Nationwide customers would simply take their business elsewhere, he did not convince me that he cared. In fact, I left the meeting wondering whether Nationwide would be quite glad to see the back of them. When we pressed him further on why so many branches were closing and why Nationwide was not retaining a central branch, say, in Lewisham, he suggested that demand would be so great for that one branch that it would just “topple over”—I think he referred to it as a “vortex effect”. We were left thinking that there are clearly enough customers wanting to use a branch in south-east London, yet Nationwide is still determined to press on with its closures.

It is tempting for me to rehearse the arguments that have already been made, but I will not because I know that time does not permit. Suffice to say that ours are not the parts of London where people have easy access to the internet at home, or where people want to do everything by telephone. There is a reason why I have 40 people coming into my advice surgery every fortnight. They want to speak to a human being, because it is easier and more convenient. I do not know why their building society will not give them that same opportunity, and I do not know why Nationwide is giving that opportunity to people living in leafier parts of south-east London but not to my constituents.

I wholeheartedly agree with the comments made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich and Woolwich, and I join him in urging the Minister to look carefully at this situation and to consider what, if anything, he can do to encourage Nationwide to reconsider its decision. It seems ironic that the UK’s biggest building society—which does, after all, call itself “Nationwide”—will have a high street presence only in those parts of the country where there are healthy profits to be made. I cannot help but think that it is nationwide except for those people on modest incomes and for those in my corner of south-east London.