Wind Farms (Mid-Wales)

Debate between Guto Bebb and Sandra Osborne

Tuesday 10th May 2011 Westminster Hall

[Sandra Osborne (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Lab)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies) on securing the debate. I am sorry to hear about his injury, but given the pain that he must be suffering, he put the case on behalf of his constituents extremely well, and I am sure that they will appreciate that. Everything he said is familiar to me as I have a very similar situation in my constituency, which is why I am so grateful for the opportunity to speak in today’s debate.

The Carrick area of Ayrshire is one of the most beautiful in Scotland—I would say in the UK, but I will not enter into a competition with the hon. Gentleman. It is obviously a rural area, and has suffered job losses and loss of services in recent years. It is dependent on tourism and will be for the foreseeable future.

I do not stand here as someone who is against wind farms per se. They are a reality whether we like them or not, but I do not personally like turbines. They do not do anything for the local environment, but they have a part to play in securing our energy needs and meeting renewable energy targets, so it would be unrealistic to take an all-or-nothing approach and say that there should be no wind farms. Although I am aware of the various research and that countries such as Denmark seem to be backtracking on the whole idea, there is not enough substantial evidence to take the view that they should simply be banned, and, on a tactical level, if someone wanted to do that, it would not be practical or realistic. I will refer to the health concerns associated with wind farms, in some cases, later in my contribution in the context of my constituents.

Not enough work has been done on alternative sources of energy other than wind farms. Carbon capture and storage is close to my heart because another part of my very large constituency is a mining area with an open-cast mine. In contrast to wind farms, which do not provide many jobs, open-cast mines could provide hundreds of jobs in a very poor part of my constituency. I am frustrated that more work has not been done in that regard.

The hon. Gentleman referred to other means of generating energy, such as offshore and tidal schemes, but, again, we have been slow to invest in such sources. Some progress has now been made, but they will not become a practical alternative in the near future. We hope to see them become so, but they are not there now. The Scottish National party Government have outlawed nuclear energy in Scotland, but given the situation in Japan it was bound to be called into question by some people. I know that the circumstances are not the same, but an incident such as that is bound to raise fears among the public, so nuclear policy may be affected as well. All in all, we have not done enough to tackle the issues to meet our renewable targets.

My worry with wind farm development is the proliferation of wind farms in particular areas. As the hon. Gentleman said, initially, everybody took the view that we must contribute for the public good, because it is important for the future of the planet, and what could be more important? I now fear that, once the doors to wind farms have been opened in an area, before we know it, the whole place will be full of them. If all the applications that were submitted for a small town in my constituency, Dalmellington—not in the Carrick area, but in a former mining area—were granted, the whole town would be surrounded by wind farms. Imagine the devastation in the community if that happened—it had been blighted already by the coal industry over many years. That has not happened yet, but the fear is always there, as more and more applications are made.

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

The hon. Lady makes an important point, which clearly supports the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire. (Glyn Davies) There are small-scale wind farms in my constituency, which have community support, and the concern in my constituency is that the type of monster development that we see in mid-Wales will damage those community-led developments that have been beneficial to rural communities, such as the upper Conwy valley.

[Sandra Osborne]

I could not agree more. The proliferation is causing wind farms per se to be called into question in a way that is not necessary or desirable.

There are 20 wind farms operational, at the scoping stage or in the planning process in my constituency and the adjacent area of Galloway, which is by no means large; it is a small area of Scotland. People will not be able to see the details, but I have a map of the area that indicates the scale of development that will happen if all the wind farm applications go through. We will have almost 600 wind turbines, and even the most ardent environmentalist must surely understand that that is not acceptable in anybody’s book.

It is my responsibility as an MP to put forward the views of my constituents on this matter, because they are in a David and Goliath battle with the big companies, which come in and say that they are consulting people, but the decision has already been made. I must put forward the real concerns of my constituents, because no one at the moment is listening—certainly not in the Scotland Parliament. The benefits of wind farms should be stated, but so should the cost, and not only the financial cost to the taxpayer, but the cost to the community.

I have constituents who are very close to wind turbines. In Scotland, the suggested separation distance—the suggested distance—is 2 km, but some individual houses are nearer than that. I have a constituent who cannot open her curtains or blinds because she is subjected to constant flicker from the wind farm. Although it is said that there is no evidence that that can happen, she would differ; her mental and physical health has been seriously affected. However, compensation is not available to allow people to move, and such people will not be able to sell their houses.

I wish to make two last points. First, I was interested to hear that England has stronger rights to object. I would like to know more about that, because such rights are needed in Scotland and elsewhere. It is not acceptable that people can be more or less bullied into accepting the situation, with no redress or appeal.

My other worry is with the new Scottish National party Government. I have a lot of worries about that, but the main one is that they have totally unrealistic targets for 100% renewables, and they cannot possibly be met in the time scale. To my constituents, that means only one thing—ever more wind farms in their area.

Detention of Palestinian Children (West Bank)

Debate between Guto Bebb and Sandra Osborne

Tuesday 7th December 2010 Westminster Hall

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

Could the hon. Lady just clarify where that information comes from—that specific claim that 32% of confessions are made in Hebrew?

[Sandra Osborne]

Certainly. As I said, a number of NGOs took us around, and they have done research on the issue. However, most of the information comes from Defence for Children International, which has taken the testimonies of many children. I refer the hon. Gentleman to its report, if he wants to see more information.

Israel operates a dual legal system for Israelis and Palestinians, with different ages of responsibility and different levels of protection for Israeli and Palestinian children. In 2009, two thirds of Palestinian children detained reported being physically abused during their time in custody. Allegations of torture remain widespread. The Palestinian section of Defence for Children International reports that more than 700 children a year are prosecuted in Israel’s two west bank military courts. Since 2000, around 6,500 Palestinian children have been detained in Israeli jails. As of 1 November 2010, 251 Palestinian children were being detained in three Israeli prisons. Two of those children are currently being held by Israel without trial or charge, under administrative detention orders.

The Addameer Prisoners’ Support and Human Rights Association reports that most Palestinian children are detained on the charge of throwing stones; 62% of those arrested in 2009 were detained on that charge. Children are taken away from their home, generally at night, and they are blindfolded, often humiliated, and regularly abused. While we were at the military court, we spoke to a family who had been woken during the night and told to stand outside their home because their son had been identified as a boy who was going to be arrested. He was taken off, and the parents had no idea where he was going to. Children are taken to unknown military detention centres that are generally outside the occupied territories. The family is rarely informed of the location of their child, and may only find out that information via contact with the International Committee of the Red Cross or legal NGOs.

Once in detention, a child is rarely told why they have been arrested, and they are held for up to eight days without access to their family or a lawyer. Interviews take the form of military-style interrogations, and are conducted without video recording, despite demands to end that practice. Forms of abuse that are frequently reported include sleep deprivation, beatings, slapping and kicking, denial of food and water, prolonged periods in uncomfortable conditions, exposure to extreme heat or cold, and denial of access to toilets and washing facilities. In total, 81% of Palestinian children confess during interrogation. The Public Committee Against Torture in Israel reports that abuse is widespread:

“Out of a sample of 100 sworn affidavits collected by lawyers from these children in 2009, 69% of the children reported being beaten and kicked, 49% reported being threatened, 14% were held in solitary confinement, 12% were threatened with sexual abuse including rape and 32% were forced to sign confessions in Hebrew.”

At the end of our all-party group’s four-day tour of the occupied west bank, we arrived at the military court of Ofer. We were there to witness just how the Israeli military courts treated Palestinian children. The courtroom procedures were witnessed by our delegation in a tense and distressing atmosphere. There was a jangle of chains outside the door of the courtroom. All the visitors froze. Army officers led child detainees into the military courtroom. The children’s legs were shackled, they were handcuffed and they were all kitted out in brown jumpsuits. One had to wonder if the soldiers felt threatened by 13 and 14-year-old boys.

We waited in the basic concrete courtrooms, looking at the uniformed judge and prosecutors. Two parallel processes happened. The judge, the prosecuting team and the defence lawyer discussed the case in Hebrew, with an interpreter translating into Arabic. No witnesses were called and no testimony was challenged. The judge never once looked at the children or spoke to them. Some children only met their lawyers for the first time in the courtroom. Each child’s case lasted barely a few minutes. I think that I am correct in saying that there was no outcome reached in any case that we saw, although my colleagues will correct me if I am wrong. The cases were all continued. I do not know if that had anything to do with our presence, but that was the situation.

For all the children we saw that morning, the only thing that mattered was seeing their families, perhaps for the first time in months. They showed no faith in the proceedings, neither caring what the judge was saying nor expecting to be released. One child had to shout out to his parents the name of the prison inside Israel where he was being held. His parents had had no idea where he was being kept. Nearly all the children were there on stone-throwing offences. One was being tried on the basis of a confession from another minor, which was later withdrawn.

Lawyers advise children and their families to plead guilty, not because the children might be guilty, but because if they plead guilty, they might be released after three months, whereas if they plead innocent, they are likely to be detained for about a year, which for a child of that age is unthinkable. In 2006, acquittals were granted in just 0.26% of child cases, which shows a presumption of guilt, not innocence. All prosecuted children get a security record that prevents them from entering Israel or Jerusalem, which affects them, as do the other aspects of growing up under occupation.

For decades, our Government have said that Israel must adhere to international law, including the fourth Geneva convention, including by ending illegal settlements, home demolitions, collective punishments, the use of human shields and the theft of resources and artefacts. It also means addressing the treatment of Palestinian children in military courts and detention centres. Is it not time for the British Government to show that they are serious about their responsibilities to hold Israel and its leaders to account? Israel cannot remain above international law.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sandra Osborne]

Of course that is true, but I point out that Defence for Children International is carrying out research on both juvenile court systems to assess their equity. The fact remains that the Israeli Government treat Palestinians and Israelis in two different ways, one involving military courts and the other civil courts, which cannot possibly be justified.

[Guto Bebb]

Is it not the case that that dual system recognises that the west bank, for example, is not an annexed part of Israel? There is an issue in terms of the legal systems and the Palestinian Authority being coupled with Israel. As those areas are not annexed, the legal system that Israel faces involves a different way of dealing with those children.

[Sandra Osborne]

The Palestinians have their own system for dealing with juvenile crime. I might add that we raised some issues about that with the Palestinian Prime Minister, who certainly acknowledged that there are problems with adult crime. The occupation has gone on for years, and the fact that Palestine is at least facing up to its difficulties and trying to improve the situation is laudable. However, it does not really matter what the legal system is. The system used by the Israelis breaks international law. That is completely unacceptable, and it is high time that something was done about it.