Interest Rate Swap Derivatives

Debate between Guto Bebb and Mark Lazarowicz

Thursday 24th October 2013 Commons Chamber

[Guto Bebb]

I could not agree more with my hon. Friend. The expectations back in 2007 were that interest rates would go down, yet there were numerous examples of bank sales teams informing businesses that they needed to protect themselves against a rising interest rate scenario—contrary to the information that the banks themselves had.

Another key call is why there is no appeal process within the redress scheme. There would be much more confidence in that scheme if there were an appeals process. I understand that the Financial Ombudsman Service offered to provide an appeals service, but the offer was rejected by the FCA. It would give some comfort without complicating issues too much if, for example, assessors working for one bank in the redress scheme were able to provide an appeals process for another bank in it. That may not be perfect, but it would help to avoid over-complicating what is already a complicated redress process and it would give businesses the confidence that there is an appeal process and that they can turn to somebody else to argue their case. We should be very concerned about having a redress scheme without any appeal process, as it goes against the principle of natural justice, while opening up the door to litigation, when the whole point of the redress scheme was supposed to be to avoid litigation.

Embedded or hidden swaps, which are currently excluded from the redress scheme, are another key issue to highlight and a matter of huge concern. If we think about it, a hidden swap is quite possibly worse because businesses were not even aware that they were also taking out with their fixed-rate loan an interest rate derivative product. The American author, James Riley once said:

“If it walks like a duck, and swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it must be a duck.”

The same point needs to be made about these hedging products. If the impact of an embedded swap is the same as the impact of a separate hedging product taken out with it, it is difficult to argue that the small businesses that were sold those products should be excluded because of a technicality relating to whether they are subject to the FCA regulations. I ask the Minister to respond on that specific issue.

A publican from Aberystwyth, Mansel Beechey, was sold one of these embedded products. I know Mansel very well because when I was a student in Aberystwyth, I was financially illiterate and used to cash cheques in the pub. I used to do that on a Wednesday evening and pay 50p for the privilege. On a Saturday evening, I would want to cash a cheque again, and Mansel would say, “Well, make it one for £30, and I will give you back what you gave me on Wednesday, only charging you the 50p once.” Mansel Beechey thus showed me more respect and consideration, in behaving properly towards me, than the bank that sold him the hidden swap showed to him. That business had been built up over a long period. If Mansel Beechey could show to me a degree of responsibility that had not been shown to him, there is clearly something wrong with our banking sector.

[Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/Co-op)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Guto Bebb]

I am afraid that I cannot take another intervention.

The issue of hidden swaps is important and needs to be addressed. We need to know why businesses to which they were mis-sold have been excluded from the redress scheme. Thousands of businesses have been mis-sold these products, banks have admitted that the products were mis-sold, and yet the redress scheme is not, as yet, performing as it should. I am not looking for a new scheme, but I am looking for changes, and much greater speed, in the scheme that we currently have; and I think that we need to address some of the exclusions, which are clearly unfair.

I became involved in this issue when a constituent of mine, Mr Colin Jones, came to see me. He claimed that he had been sold a complex product and that, as a result, his business had gone under. The last news I heard of Mr Jones was that he was homeless and living with his mother. He has lost absolutely everything, and because his business was a limited company, it is highly unlikely that even if the redress scheme highlights the fact that he was mis-sold the product and is in need of compensation, he will not benefit from that compensation personally. I think it wholly wrong for someone to lose his business not because he was a poor business man, not because he made a mistake, but because he was taken advantage of by his bank. Having listened to the trade calls, I am quite happy to say that publicly.

I am delighted to note the interest in the issue that is being expressed in the Chamber today, because I believe that businesses all over the country are looking to us to give a lead. I hope that the FCA and the banks will listen to what is being said, and I sincerely hope that the redress scheme will start to perform in the way in which it was expected to perform in January, rather than in the slow and bureaucratic way in which it has performed so far.

Budget Resolutions and Economic Situation

Debate between Guto Bebb and Mark Lazarowicz

Thursday 21st March 2013 Commons Chamber

[Guto Bebb]

Indeed, and I welcome every single one of those jobs.

The worst thing about the argument that we are having is that every time Labour Members appear in the media in Wales, they complain, “Yes, jobs have been created, but they’re not our type of jobs—they’re not proper jobs.” They insult people who are going out to work and trying to earn a living in supermarkets and hotels by claiming that they are not taking the right type of jobs. People in my constituency know that a job is an opportunity to help themselves. This Government are making sure that people in low-paid jobs are keeping the money they earn because their tax rates are going down. Labour Members bribed people with their own money; this Government are allowing people to keep their money in order to look after themselves, encouraging self-sufficiency and responsibility rather than the expectation that the state will look after them. We are moving in a direction that I am proud of, because we will have a country in which people are confident that if they invest, they will be able to keep more of their money without being taxed and in which people will be able to earn money without being penalised for doing so.

In my constituency and in many other parts of Wales, we are very dependent on the small business community, which was never understood by Labour Members; indeed, they do not understand it now. I will give an example of how bad Labour is at understanding business. Labour’s Minister for Finance in Wales says that she does not believe in capitalism and prefers Marxism. If she were a trade unionist or a Labour activist, I would understand that, but she is the Minister responsible for economic development in Wales and does not believe in capitalism. She should give up her job and get somebody better to do it who will ensure that Wales can benefit from the policies of this Government.

Every single one of the small businesses in my constituency will benefit from a reduction in employer’s national insurance contributions. Labour increased national insurance contributions for people employing staff; we are reducing them significantly. Some 35,000 businesses in Wales will benefit, 20,000 of which will pay no employer’s national insurance contributions. My hon. Friend the Member for Burton (Andrew Griffiths) talked about small breweries and the fact that the beer duty escalator has been stopped, which is a good thing for the industry. In my constituency I have four small breweries that will benefit not only from the changes to the beer duty escalator, which was brought in by Labour, but from the reduction in employer’s national insurance contributions, allowing them to invest and to develop more opportunities for work in the area.

There is a 13% differential between the rate at which Labour would be taxing petrol and what this Government are doing. In a rural constituency such as mine, that is crucial—13p per litre makes a huge difference. Labour Members might not understand this because they do not understand rural areas, but in my part of the world there is an understanding that the changes to fuel duty and excise duties are crucial for a rural area that depends on self-employment and the small businesses that do understand the needs of the community and the need to invest in order to improve.

[Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/Co-op)]

What does the hon. Gentleman think would be the effect on rural and, indeed, urban communities in his constituency of a housing measure that will apparently subsidise people to buy second homes up to a value of £600,000?

[Guto Bebb]

We await clarity on that issue. However, I am absolutely terrified about the fact that the administration of that measure will be partly devolved to Wales, where the situation is astonishing. The NewBuy scheme was introduced by this Government in April 2012, but it has yet to be introduced in Wales. The Welsh Labour Government will introduce it in June 2013. In other words, 15 months after the money was made available, the Labour Government in Cardiff are still not helping people in my constituency who want support to buy new houses.

I am concerned that the Labour Government in Cardiff are not delivering. Their decisions on every single policy are made for political reasons to undermine the work of this coalition Government, and nowhere is that more the case than with how the Welsh Government refuse to co-operate with the Work programme. Many programmes in Wales are funded by money from the European social fund and they provide support to those who need it to get back into employment, but the Welsh Labour Government refuse to allow those individuals to access the Work programme and the ESF business support programmes at the same time. The Labour party’s commitment to employment growth in Wales is zero, while its commitment to wrecking the work of this coalition Government is 100% and total. The people of Wales realise the betrayal of their communities by the Labour party.

The fact of the matter is that, on every single issue, this Budget is making an effort, in very difficult circumstances, to help those people who want to help themselves. As a Member who represents an area that is very dependent on self-employment, I welcome the key decision to introduce the flat pension rate. For far too long, the option of self-employment was penalised by the pensions system. The move to a flat system whereby people will benefit by about £144 a week from a guaranteed state pension is crucial. The decision to become self-employed is a difficult one to make, especially so in Wales, where it is also difficult to then provide for a pension, because the position of the public sector is so different. I warmly welcome the fact that this Government are tackling the need for a fairer pension system. Every single person in my constituency—employed or self-employed—will realise that if they put money aside for their own pension, they will be supported by a Government who are committed to supporting people to do the right thing.

Finally, one of my concerns about the current economic situation relates to financing for small businesses. This is not a criticism of the Government. Time and again I meet representatives from banks who claim that they have money available but that there is a lack of demand for funding. We have heard the same complaints from the Labour party. The key thing is that MPs can do a lot of work on this matter. During the Easter recess I will hold two surgeries to tell businesses how to get themselves fit for the lending available. Circumstances have changed. The time when money was thrown at businesses has gone, but businesses that go to the banks with appropriate business plans and ideas for development and growth should and could access money at much cheaper rates than the Welsh Assembly-funded Finance Wales scheme. MPs can stand up in this Chamber and complain as much as they want, but the key thing is that we—I know that my Government colleagues do this—work with businesses to help them access that funding, rather than complain all the time in the way that the Labour party does.

Legislation (Territorial Extent) Bill

Debate between Guto Bebb and Mark Lazarowicz

Friday 9th September 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mark Lazarowicz]

There may have been no SNP vote on the Health and Social Care Bill, but the abortion counselling measures would have applied to Scotland. The hon. Gentleman is not being consistent.

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

As a Welsh Conservative Member, I feel that the Bill gives us an important, legitimate opportunity to ask ourselves whether we can contribute to a debate when there are consequences, to consider those consequences and to decide whether we are imposing on English affairs or taking part in a discussion that will also affect Wales.

[Mark Lazarowicz]

That comment may support my position. Let us take the argument to the next stage: if the hon. Gentleman was asked not to vote on a Bill that had financial consequences, it would put him in a difficult position with his constituents if he chose to ignore those implications.

It is not simply that many Bills are more complex than they first seem in their implications for the UK as a whole; I am also concerned about the way in which the measure would fundamentally change the workings of the House.