European Union Citizenship

Debate between Gregory Campbell and Hywel Williams

Wednesday 7th March 2018 Commons Chamber

[Hywel Williams]

I agree entirely. As I said, my definition of identity, be it Welsh, English, Scottish, Northern Irish or whatever, is that it is self-ascribed—it is something that someone claims. That is why my party has such members as my hon. Friend the Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd, who comes from London—born in Eltham, I think—but is entirely Welsh and Welsh speaking. That is probably a consequence of marrying someone from Blaenau Ffestiniog, where no quarter is given or expected, but the point is that we have people in our party who come from all over the world, and long may that remain the case—we have no exclusive definition.

As I have said, Gwynfor said, a very long time ago:

“Anyone can be Welsh, so long as you are prepared to take the consequences.”

Those consequences, for us as European citizens, are that we have wide rights to travel, live work and study anywhere in the EU. European citizenship also gives us rights under EU law in respect of health, education, work, and social security, as well as the right to be free of discrimination based on nationality—which, I think, is relevant to what was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd. The assumption so far on both sides, the EU and the Government, is that EU citizenship will lapse at the point of our exit from the European Union. However, EU citizenship did not replace UK citizenship when it came into force. It is additional: the two continue to co-exist, and leaving the EU does not entail the end of EU citizenship for UK citizens.

Unfortunately, the Government, by default, are intent on taking away something that is of significant value to the people of these islands. They should not do so. In fact, they should make the retention of EU citizenship an important central plank of future negotiations. It is something that we can ask—demand—of the European Union; it is something that it is in its power to give, and something that would be valued by our citizens. It would benefit us all, not least by establishing a common status for all EU citizens who live here, including those with Irish heritage and the 3 million or so people who have moved here from EU member states. It would establish a level playing field.

There was a glimmer of hope last year when, on 2 November, Bloomberg reported the Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union as saying that the UK was—in the words of its headline—

“Open to Talking About Associate Citizenship After Brexit”

—which came as a surprise to some people—

and that that would allow “visa-free working rights” to UK nationals. The Secretary of State said:

“We’ll listen to anything of this nature. The aim of this exercise is to be good for Europe, good for Britain, and that means good for the citizens of Europe and Britain.”

I also note that the Prime Minister said in her statement on Monday that

“UK and EU citizens will still want to work and study in each other’s countries, and we are open to discussions about how to maintain the links between our people.”—[Official Report, 5 March 2018; Vol. 637, c. 26.]

Perhaps I am over-interpreting, but that seems to me to be potentially code for associated citizenship. We shall see how things develop, but for me it had the flavour of a “get out of jail free” card.

Today I am arguing for maintaining the status quo. We are European citizens and will continue to be so, but obviously I urge the Secretary of State and the Prime Minister even now to pursue their less ambitious line further. For those who ask for a precedent for EU citizenship—and some have asked me for one—I point to the situation when Ireland became a free state. The UK allowed Irish citizens to retain their UK citizenship then, and indeed, as Brexit problems and contradictions have closed in, the Government—from the Prime Minister down—have been lavish in their praise for the arrangements between the Irish Republic and the UK. That is a model of which they approve.

Earlier, I mentioned people of Irish heritage. It is little remarked upon, but those with a qualifying link with any part of the entire island of Ireland through either family or residence—even a short residence in Northern Ireland—can apply for an Irish passport. That applies to millions of British people, including my neighbour Miss Norah Davies, whose passport application I was happy to sign some weeks ago. Her passport has now arrived, much to her satisfaction. I caution Ministers not to tangle with angry older citizens; they do so at their peril. Norah Davies’s link with Ireland through her mother reaches back to the first part of the last century. My link, alas, petered out two generations before hers, and I therefore do not qualify.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

There is a little-known anomaly which I and others have been trying to address, and to which the hon. Gentleman alluded inadvertently a moment ago. When the Irish Republic, or the Irish free state as it was then, left the Commonwealth in 1949, the British Government of the time allowed those who had been born in the Republic and had moved to Northern Ireland or elsewhere in the UK to retain their British citizenship. Nowadays, those who were born in the Republic and live in Northern Ireland cannot obtain British passports, although people who have never been to the Republic can obtain Irish passports. In terms of UK citizenship, those people are still somewhat disadvantaged. I appreciate that the hon. Gentleman is talking about EU citizenship, but given his allusion, does he agree that that needs to be addressed?

[Hywel Williams]

I must confess that I was entirely unaware of the issue that the hon. Gentleman has raised. If that is indeed the case, I think that it bears more examination, and I should be interested to discuss it with him further.

I was talking about Irish citizens and those of Irish extraction. There is a certain serendipity in the fact that UK-Irish citizens have those rights on the basis of one grandparent while the rest of us do not. There will be people like me with British citizenship, people of Irish extraction with Irish citizenship, Irish people with Irish citizenship who live, work and vote here, and EU citizens with a certain status, whatever that may be. There is a certain randomness about the whole arrangement, which would in some respects be addressed by an overarching European citizenship. I fear that that serendipity will inevitably become more pressing when those with the favoured passports join the short queue at holiday airports while their less fortunate neighbours wait in the “others” line. It will have hit us a bit harder by then.

The Government say that they want a close relationship with our EU partners. That is their ambition, cited over and over again. They now have a practical opportunity to support that relationship through continuation citizenship for current British EU citizens, and, for all those who will not be EU citizens at the point of our leaving—that is, the unborn—a future status through associate EU citizenship.

So far the debate has been dominated by trade issues, the divorce bill and the Irish border—those are the issues with which we have been grappling for many months—but many Brexit promises before the referendum had an individualistic quality. People felt that they were being promised something individually. We would be richer and have better services, not least through having an extra £350 million every week to spend on the NHS. Promises such as that persuaded people, along with, of course, the immigration issue.

Disability Living Allowance

Debate between Gregory Campbell and Hywel Williams

Wednesday 9th March 2011 Westminster Hall

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

I am glad to have secured this timely debate on the reform of the mobility component of disability living allowance—the debate could scarcely be timelier. I am also grateful to the hon. Members who are here, as well as to those who have expressed their interest but cannot be here. Lastly, I am grateful to the many organisations that have provided briefings to me and others for this debate.

Disability living allowance is highly valued. Currently, the lower rate is £18.95 and the higher rate is £49.85. As the response to the Government’s consultation states, DLA, and attendance allowance before it,

“had a major positive impact on recipients’ lives…DLA recipients of working age were unanimous in expressing views that DLA made a big difference to them.”

Many people depend on DLA. With some reservations, I say that the application and decision making processes are clear. I will refer to that later, but at least we know where we stand. Research also shows that DLA is unlikely to be subject to fraud: the Department for Work and Pensions estimates fraud at 0.5%, the lowest rate in the entire benefits system. The system seems to be working. As a rural MP in north Wales, I know that DLA is particularly valuable to people in rural areas, who generally face intense problems with mobility. The money can transform people’s lives.

My concerns about the Government’s proposals relate to the assessment system, the threats to automatic entitlement, the extension of the waiting period, mobility payments for people in residential care and assessments regarding the use of aids and adaptations. However, my overarching concern is about the prospect of cuts of up to 20%. If cuts are made, who will pay for them? I strongly suspect that it is people with a disability who will be hit.

To rehearse the history, the mobility element of DLA was introduced in its earliest form, mobility allowance, by the Conservative Government in 1973. At the time, the Government were responding to the consensus between parties and civil society organisations that something had to be done to address the changing circumstances in which people with disabilities were living. They were living, living longer and living in the community rather than in residential care, and they were often younger than the disabled people who would have been living in the community 10, 20 or 30 years earlier. The world was changing, and the attendance and mobility allowances were introduced in response.

I have personal experience of those allowances. A close relative of mine, a young person severely injured in a car accident, was in just such circumstances in the early 1970s and was living in the community after extended medical treatment. At the time, mobility allowance made all the difference. It transformed his life then, and it still does now, given that he lives in a remote rural area and depends on his own transport.

The Government say that DLA needs reform. I agree, but my grounds for reform might be somewhat different from theirs. I think that the application process can be a disincentive. Many people have come to me, as their MP, in dismay over the substantial form that must be filled in, and I have been glad to refer such people to the citizens advice bureau. I pay tribute to the CAB’s work in the benefits field in general, but its expertise in the particular instance of DLA is truly inspirational. The application process could be changed.

I worry about take-up. There are few current statistics about the level of take-up of DLA and the mobility element of DLA. I did a bit of research with a colleague and found a reference to research in 1998, more than 10 years ago. The family resources survey estimated take-up of the mobility element at between 50% and 70%. Will the Minister tell us, now or by letter, whether any more recent estimates of the take-up have been made? I think that many people do not claim DLA or DLA mobility, even though they would clearly benefit from it.

As I have said, the application process could be improved. The number of successful appeals suggests that the initial assessment is not what it should be. Also, the DLA mobility element is age-restricted. Mobility allowance was initially subject to age restrictions—it was confined to people between 25 and 45—which were gradually expanded over the years. However, as one elderly constituent said to me recently, that benefit, which would help older people with mobility problems, is deliberately denied them by the age limits, which seems somewhat paradoxical. Will personal independence payments for mobility awarded before retirement continue to be paid afterwards, as DLA is at present? People are worried, perhaps unnecessarily.

The Government are proposing changes, as we will see this afternoon, and introducing PIP. The proposals will be subjected to detailed debates. As I have said, I worry about the possibility of 20% cuts and share people’s concerns and perception that there is a problem.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on his success in securing this debate. He has returned to the issue raised in the press of the possibility of a 20% cut in the numbers applying. If we take that figure with his earlier figure of less than 1% fraud or abuse of the system, we see the inevitable consequence that, even if the Government’s reductions target all those who fraudulently abuse the system, more than 19% of those targeted will still be genuine claimants, who will suffer unnecessarily.

[Hywel Williams]

The hon. Gentleman makes an excellent point. The fundamental question is who will pay if cuts are made. The people squeezed out of the system will be genuine claimants who are disincentivised, or people with lower-level needs.

I am concerned by the Government’s conflation of the arguments about promoting the take-up of work and the need for reform. DLA literally helps some people get to work, but it is not a work-related benefit; it exists to assist with the additional costs of living with impairments or long-term health conditions. There is a coincidence between receiving DLA and experiencing difficulty finding work, but that means only that work for people with a disability is scarce. DLA is a marker rather than a cause, as the consultation paper seems to suggest. The work problems that I see confronting people with a disability involve ignorance among employers about the value of disabled workers. But perhaps, Mr Davies, I am straying into a subject beyond the strict bounds of the mobility element.

I am concerned about mobility and people in residential care. When I first thought of applying for this debate, that was the main issue that I wanted to address, as it is of concern to a great number of people. I certainly welcome the Government’s decision to delay the provision and to review it until 2013. That is unsurprising, given the view of the Social Security Advisory Committee, which said:

“This measure will substantially reduce the independence of disabled people who are being cared for in residential accommodation, which goes against the stated aim of the reform of DLA to support ‘disabled people to lead independent and active lives’.”

I very much welcome the postponement, but it is only a postponement and people are concerned.