Scotland and the Union

Gregg McClymont Excerpts

Thursday 29th November 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)]

I welcome the opportunity to take part in the debate and I congratulate the hon. Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing) and the co-sponsors on securing it. I will be pleased to go through the Lobby in support of the motion with parties from all parts of the House. We need to send a strong message that, in all parts of the United Kingdom, we believe that we are better together, and that this is not just a question of us believing that Scotland is better in the United Kingdom, but that people in other parts of the United Kingdom want Scotland to be part of the United Kingdom. I take part in the debate in that spirit, conscious that ultimately it is for the people of Scotland to decide how they vote in the referendum.

Hon. Members will know that the ties between people in Northern Ireland and in Scotland are very close. There is strong and growing interest in and support for Ulster Scots culture and heritage in the Province. Many people in Northern Ireland can trace their lineage and family history to Scottish antecedents—indeed, I would say that my name is more common in Scotland than it is in Northern Ireland. When I see those coaches coming over on the ferry with the Dodds name on it, I often say to my party colleagues that I wish we could hire some of them at election time and have them traverse north Belfast, but I have not been able to persuade them to do so.

Of course, I stand here as a member of a party that has “Unionist” as part of its title. Our party was formed at a critical time in the history of Northern Ireland, when the Union was clearly under threat. The years that followed were difficult: tragically, there was much violence and bloodshed; many people were injured, lives were lost and many still live with physical and mental scars. Thankfully, that period of violence is largely behind us, and although there are still some who would try to drag us backwards, they are small in number and it is clear that those who tried to destroy the Union by terrorism did not succeed.

Northern Ireland, and the United Kingdom as a whole, is a much better and different place today. Gone is the uncertainty about our future and our place in the UK. Indeed, right hon. and hon. Members will know, or be interested to learn if they are not aware of it, that support for the Union is at an all-time high, and is actually growing. A recent survey showed that a majority of people who traditionally would have described themselves as nationalist would, if there was a vote today, vote to remain part of the United Kingdom. There are many reasons why there is growing support for the Union, not least the fact that the violence has diminished and that under the current devolution settlement people feel that everybody has a say. To a large extent, people are in control of many areas of policy. They see parties and politicians who, while they have their differences—strong differences, which are sometimes illustrated in debates in this House—are working together for the betterment of all the people of Northern Ireland on the economic and social issues of the day. It is therefore important that we continue to strengthen, maintain and improve devolution where we can in Northern Ireland and elsewhere in the United Kingdom. It is dynamic and evolving, and we need to move it forward in that way.

[Gregg McClymont (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East) (Lab)]

I wonder what role the economic storm that hit Ireland at the end of the last decade and the recognition of the benefits of being part of a larger union have played in increasing support for the Union.

[Mr Dodds]

The hon. Gentleman makes an important point and I was just going to come on to that. While there is the case for devolution and people having a role in deciding issues in Northern Ireland, there is no doubt that the people who would at one time have looked to the Celtic tiger and envied what was happening in the south have had a rude awakening about economic realities and the situation in the United Kingdom and other countries in the EU. It is clear that the massive economic boom in the Republic was built on a number of factors, not least a property boom that crashed dramatically. I have heard it said many times by people who traditionally look to the Irish Republic as their future, “Where would we be today if we’d been part of the eurozone? Where would we be today if we had been part of a country like the Irish Republic, instead of having our fortunes tied in with a bigger country like the United Kingdom?” That has been an important factor.

Who would have believed 20 years ago that we would be talking about the danger to the Union coming from Scotland, rather than from Northern Ireland? I heard the leader of Sinn Fein say that he was going to campaign for a referendum in Northern Ireland. There is absolutely no support for that. Of course, we do not fear a referendum in Northern Ireland. We know that people would vote overwhelmingly to retain Northern Ireland’s membership of the United Kingdom. We are not opposed to it for any reason of concern about the outcome; however, under the provisions of the legislation, once Northern Ireland has a referendum, it has to happen every seven years, and we believe that that would be extremely destabilising and unnecessary. When I hear Gerry Adams talk about the need for a referendum, it is a long way from his cry that there would be a united Ireland by 2016.

Thankfully, the debate on the future of Scotland in the Union has never been tainted or stained in any way by violence and terrorism. The debate is being conducted in a peaceful and democratic way, and it will be decided through the ballot box. As I said, we respect the right of the Scottish people to decide their future. Of course, it is right and appropriate that people from other parts of the United Kingdom should have their say as well. We believe that we are better off together. That is an excellent campaign description—it is positive and people are responding to it. It is not being stated in an arrogant or aggressive way. Instead, people are saying, “We want you in Scotland to remain part of the United Kingdom.”

--- Later in debate ---

[David Mundell]

I am not an expert on procedure, but I understand this debate is being curtailed because the SNP is going to force two Divisions. That is simply a stunt, and those of us who are involved in Scottish politics are very familiar with the SNP preferring to pull stunts than talk about the issues of the day.

I particularly want to thank the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) for his excellent speech. It is heartening to hear Members from other parts of the United Kingdom state how much importance they place on Scotland remaining in the UK. As he said, the whole of the United Kingdom would be the poorer if Scotland left.

In 2014, people in Scotland will face their most important political decision in 300 years. A vote for independence in the referendum of that year is not just for Christmas 2014; it is for life. As the motion states:

“Scotland has always made, and continues to make, a significant contribution to the UK over the 305 years of the Union”.

The Government believe that Scotland is stronger within the United Kingdom, which Scotland helped to shape, as the hon. Member for Glasgow North West (John Robertson) said, but we also recognise that the biggest constitutional question of all needs to be settled once and for all. That is why Scotland’s two Governments worked together constructively to reach an agreement on the referendum process. Regardless of the result, that constructive relationship will of course continue as we move forward. That does not mean that in the unlikely event of a yes vote, the remaining UK would facilitate Scotland’s every wish, any more than an independent Scotland would unquestioningly facilitate the wishes of the remaining UK. Inevitably—although some have sought to deny it today—there would be two separate countries and therefore two sets of interests, sometimes mutual, sometimes at odds, as is currently the case with our closest international allies and as will always be the case between separate, sovereign states.

The SNP likes to talk about partnership and about neighbours working together. These days, it even likes to talk about us all being British, even though the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire told us previously he did not know what Britishness was and had never felt British in his life. You couldn’t make it up, but the SNP does. As the hon. Member for Glasgow North West highlighted, the SNP amendment even pretends that it can wrench Scotland out of the UK and nothing will have changed. Do not be fooled: working together is what the United Kingdom is all about, but the SNP wants to break it up. Partnership is what the United Kingdom is all about, but the SNP wants to rip it up. If Scotland votes for independence in 2014, it will leave the United Kingdom—leave all that we have achieved together over the past 300 years and all that we will continue to achieve by remaining together.

[Gregg McClymont]

The credibility of the First Minister has been a central issue in this debate. What does the Minister make of Justice Leveson’s finding on the First Minister’s attempt to lobby on behalf of Sky and the possibility that that might have rendered the Government’s decision on the Sky issue unlawful?

[David Mundell]

I do not find that surprising. On several recent occasions the First Minister has been brought before the Scottish Parliament to explain things he has said that have been found to be untrue.

By putting together the various aspects of the debate—the economics, the international influence question, the fact that we Scots helped to make this United Kingdom —we get a compelling case for Scotland remaining in the UK, and many Members have made that case today. The UK Government are looking forward to making the positive case for Scotland within the United Kingdom. Today we have shown why twice as many Scots want to remain in the UK than support independence. They are people who know the difference between patriotism and nationalism; people who know, as the hon. Member for Glasgow East (Margaret Curran) said, that the saltire is a symbol of our nation, not of nationalism; people who know that being Scottish and British is not a contradiction but is the best of both worlds, whereas the SNP wants to take our Britishness away from us; people who know that Scotland helps put the “Great” into Great Britain and make our Kingdom united—