Draft Breaching Of Limits On Ticket Sales Regulations 2018

Debate between Graham P Jones and Margot James

Monday 21st May 2018 General Committees

[Margot James]

Thought has been given to that and to other ways of capping tickets. Indeed, Professor Waterson considered it in his review, but he recommended against it. Experience in other markets has shown that people find it quite easy to get round any cap. Certainly, the market would not go away, but it might be pushed elsewhere, and there would be difficulties in defining a measurable base value of any cap. Also, rapidly changing routes to market, for example through social media platforms in addition to secondary ticketing sites, would make any legislation extremely difficult to police.

[Graham P. Jones (Hyndburn) (Lab)]

To expand on that point, we talk about software bots, but in the olden days there was the practice of using mass telephone banks, and there still is today. We are aware that many calls from normal consumers do not get through. Companies have people sitting there with massive telephone banks, waiting for one line to get through. When the red light comes on, they pick up the phone and they can buy tickets as an individual, still using technology as part of that methodology. Is that something the Government are aware of? Will the regulations shut down that practice?

[Margot James]

The draft regulations cover any electronic means and make it a criminal offence to purchase tickets in bulk electronically, through the use of software. I might have to come back to the hon. Gentleman on whether that includes phone banks and whether electronic means include telephones. I shall make some more progress before I come back to him on that.

The draft regulations apply to events in the United Kingdom, but they cover activity to obtain tickets in any jurisdiction. The intended offence will be summary only, with a maximum punishment of an unlimited fine in England and Wales or an exceptional summary maximum in Scotland, as magistrates courts in Scotland do not have the power to impose unlimited fines. The relevant section of the Digital Economy Act 2017 was not commenced in Northern Ireland because of the ongoing suspension of the Northern Ireland Executive, but the intention is for it to be commenced and for this instrument to apply to events in Northern Ireland once legislative consent can be secured.

--- Later in debate ---

[Graham P. Jones]

The Minister talks about clamping down on sellers, but obviously many of them operate outside or in and around venues. I suspect that, for some venues where there might be 50,000 tickets, 1,000 of those tickets change hands outside the venue. What is she doing to ensure that those ticket sellers are caught? They are probably the people picking up the tickets from the bots. Is she going to do something about those sellers?

[Margot James]

To the extent that the sellers outside venues have committed to fulfil ticket requests made by people online—people think that they have purchased those tickets—they would be caught by the regulations, because we are preventing bots from harvesting huge numbers of tickets. I do not think we will be able to eradicate that kind of activity overnight. The purpose of the draft regulations is to prevent the use of electronic means for the wide-scale purchase of tickets for profit. The draft regulations do not capture the old-fashioned ticket tout, who still operates at big events. I agree with the hon. Gentleman that that problem still prevails.

I am glad to be reminded that touts outside venues come under the purview of trading standards departments. We have invested more money in trading standards enforcement so that they can tackle the issue, irrespective of the draft regulations. Trading standards departments have more resources and money for enforcement activity against illegal reselling.

[Graham P. Jones]

I am surprised at the argument that the Minister offers to the Committee, because as far as I am aware, trading standards departments have been cut back significantly. They are one of the departments most hit by austerity in most local authorities. Does the Minister have any figures on the number of trading standards officers employed in 2010, compared with the number in 2018?

[Margot James]

We are digressing from the debate at hand, but I am willing to answer the hon. Gentleman’s question. Trading standards budgets are a matter for local authorities, and the reduction in their budgets across the country has varied local authority by local authority. I am pleased to say that a large amount of money—approximately £12 million—was found from the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy’s budget earlier this year to reinforce trading standards activity nationally. Some of that money will undoubtedly find its way into enforcement in the area we are debating. I am pleased to say that trading standards activity will be reinforced.

On the point that was raised about secondary sites selling seats in home areas to away fans, football has separate rules that provide for health and safety. The draft regulations are aimed not at that but at tickets that have been acquired via electronic means being resold for profit. We have been very careful to focus them on the activity that is doing the most harm to the ticketing market, which is the mass harvesting of tickets online through the use of software. They will apply only where there is an intent to obtain financial gain.

Question put and agreed to.