Digital Economy Bill (Tenth sitting)

Graham P Jones Excerpts

Committee Debate: 10th sitting: House of Commons
Thursday 27th October 2016 Public Bill Committees

[Christian Matheson]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. I am cautious about straying too far from the point under discussion, but she says that this is the beginning of a slippery slope. It is not, because the Government have form in this area. I look to you, Mr Streeter, for a little bit of latitude here.

There are, for example, massive cuts to local government funding; the Government have taken huge amounts of money away from local authorities, expect them to come up with cuts and reductions in services, and then say, “It is nothing to do with us; blame your local authority.” There is one point on which I would disagree with my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Heeley: this is not the beginning of a slippery slope; it is a continuation of form. The Government have been rumbled, and they know it.

[Graham Jones (Hyndburn) (Lab)]

The amendment is important. It defines the Opposition against the Government. We value the BBC, but there is always a criticism, and the Government are reaffirming people’s view that the Government do not really trust the BBC. If they can do anything to undermine the BBC, they will, instead of supporting it. During the passage of the charter, there has been to-ing and fro-ing, and criticism of the BBC, using the stick of distinctiveness and other sticks, such as the five-year break clause.

The Government always say that they are there to stand up for the BBC and give it the freedoms that it wants, but this is not a freedom, of course; it is a shackle. As my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff West said, the Government are trying to outsource responsibility. They will not do it on bus passes; they will not say, “We’ll make the bus companies make the decision on free bus passes”, but they will make the BBC accountable for the over-75s’ free TV licences. I do not think that the Government can escape that responsibility, or the accusation that they are continually chipping away at the BBC.

Let us talk about the issue in numbers. By 2020, when the BBC has to pay fully, the figure will be £700 million. That is a considerable amount of money for the BBC to find at a time when the Government have chipped away at BBC budgets through a bit of slicing here and another bit of slicing there, and even with a cap on the licence fee.

[Kevin Brennan]

Is it not correct that at that point the people at the BBC will be faced with a decision, which is to do what is in their nature—to make programmes, to produce content and so on—or to continue an aspect of what is, after all, social policy? Will they not always have to look at what their core activity is: programme making and their distinctive role in the broadcasting universe?

[Graham Jones]

Absolutely. My hon. Friend makes the point perfectly. There is no need to add too much to that, other than to say that if we want to talk about the Government’s view of the BBC and this chipping away, which our new clause is designed to prevent, it is the outsourcing of programme making again to 100% programme making that will now be made out in the private sector and not in-house. Again, it is part of the package of making the BBC less viable, so that we arrive at a day when a tough decision might have to be made because the BBC as it exists now has been completely undermined. The policy is not to put it on a firmer footing. This £700 million is a huge part of that chipping away at the BBC.

[Calum Kerr]

In reality, the Government by all means could have had a financial settlement that reflects the same outcome, but the fact is they have passed the policy. Why pass the policy other than to abdicate responsibility?

[Graham Jones]

The hon. Gentleman anticipates what I was moving on to, which is that the policy is also about passing responsibility. The Government want to shape the decision and take the credit where there is an upside, and to dump it on the BBC where there is a downside. That is what this is about—so the BBC is left with it.

Suppose the Government wanted to offer further icing on the cake and have over-70s get the free TV licence. The Government would take the credit for that, but any difficult decisions, such as only over-80s getting the free licence and the 75-year-olds losing out, will of course be the BBC’s fault. We can see exactly what is happening and the duplicity of the argument. The Government are setting the BBC up with a dilemma: it will take the stick for any downsides, but for any upsides the Government will be up there on the podium, all backslapping each other, saying, “Great social policy!”

There is no escaping that, and I do not think that the general public are fooled—they can see. It would make perfect sense for the Minister to accept new clause 38, because the public see what the Government are doing with that shift of responsibility for the over-75s. The public will not be fooled by the shift; they can see precisely what Ministers are trying to achieve. The public, too, will be concerned and asking how it affects them, the ordinary person. Will the BBC, faced with further cuts, have to say, “Well, we’re sorry, it’s only over-80s who will get it”? Decisions and responsibilities are outsourced to the BBC, and the licence fee payer, in particular those coming up to that age, will be wondering, “Hang on, I’m going to get the worst of both worlds—either a Tory Government or the BBC cutting my licence fee.” I do not think that the public will be too happy. They will not not see through this—sorry about the double negative.

[Louise Haigh]

My hon. Friend is right. This predates the Minister’s time in post, so I very much hope that he takes the opportunity to go back on his predecessor’s decision. The Government thought they were being very clever with this move to outsource and put the duty on the BBC, but as my hon. Friend says, everyone will see right through this. Nobody will blame the BBC. The responsibility will lie clearly with the Government, and I hope that they are listening and will act on his points.

[Graham Jones]

We trust that the Government will listen to the public and see that they are on the wrong side of the argument, but perhaps we will find out in a few minutes that they do not recognise that.

[Kevin Brennan]

I do not think the 5,503 people in my constituency who will be affected are fools, but does my hon. Friend agree that any Member who votes for the change must think that the people in their constituency who will be affected by it are fools? To take an example at random, the hon. Member for Devizes has 6,478 constituents who will be affected.

[Graham Jones]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. I have glanced over the figures, and it seems that more people will be affected in the constituencies of Government Members. Perhaps those Members should be mindful of their constituents who will have real concerns about the proposal. They will not be fooled by the idea that the Government are taking a genuine and reasonable approach in giving the BBC responsibility for TV licences for over-75s.

If the Government have to take with one hand—and I do not agree with that—they could at least have made an attempt to give back with the other hand. Other than some minor giveaways to the BBC, they have made no attempt to correct even the fiscal element of the change, never mind the moral, ethical, social and public policy elements. The Government say in their explanatory notes that the BBC cannot expect to get any retransmission fees from Virgin, which is covered by the Bill, or Sky, which is not. There will therefore be no material change in the relationship between platform providers and content providers such as the BBC, which are forced to provide their content on those platforms. The Government could at least have corrected the fiscal element of the change by doing something about that commercial relationship, but instead they decided to take £700 million from the BBC. They already have a track record of slicing BBC funding for pet projects such as local TV or broadband.

The public will not be fooled. Thousands of constituents of Government Members will see the change and wonder why their Member of Parliament has taken this decision. Those in receipt of an over-75 TV licence, or coming up to that point, will think it is a deterioration in public policy. They will think, “This is not in my interests. I don’t agree with it. Why has my Member of Parliament voted against the new clause?” Government Members should think long and hard about the new clause, because I am sure their constituents will not approve of them voting against it.

[Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con)]

I did not intend to speak to new clause 38, but the power of the arguments made by Opposition Members has led me to rise to my feet. As a vice-chairman of the all-party BBC group and a fan and defender of the BBC, I cannot let some of the comments that have been made go unanswered.

If the situation were as simple as costs being transferred from the Government to the licence fee payer so that older people lost out, I would be the first to join Opposition Members in the fight against it, but that is not what the Government are proposing. We have to look at the change in its totality. For example, there is no proposal to end the over-75s’ free TV licence. It is clear that the Government wish that to continue. It was part of the negotiations and agreements that the BBC agreed to as part of the overall package. It was quite happy to accept responsibility for the over-75s’ licence fee funding.

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[Mark Menzies]

The other reason that I oppose new clause 38 is that the BBC, under the settlement, has a clear commitment to original content. Conservative Members should be reassured, as should older people listening and reading about the debate and the Government’s measure. The money does not come from a money tree and would have to be found from somewhere, and it would be found from taxpayers, many of whom are over 65. Elderly people themselves would have to find money to go towards paying for over-75s’ free TV licences. That money is now coming out of the licence fee, so taxpayers’ money is now available to go into other things. It is important that we do not forget our elderly constituents and that the Government in their totality do everything they can to ensure that the money that is freed up from being spent on the over-75s’ free TV licence goes to older people.

[Graham Jones]

I am grateful to my hon. neighbour for giving way. I respect the fact that he has in the past been a passionate spokesperson for the BBC, and I hope that he continues to be. He argues that it is the Government’s policy not to change the current arrangements for over-75s’ free TV licences. One therefore has to ask: why is it the BBC’s responsibility if it is the Government’s policy?

[Mark Menzies]

I take compliments wherever they come from and I am certainly happy to take them from the hon. Gentleman. The key question for me is: are we, in one form or another, providing free TV licences for over-75s? Yes, we are. Is the BBC, under the current settlement, out of pocket? No, it is not because the licence fee is being increased and top-slicing is ending. The BBC is committing to continue to invest record sums of money in facilities such as BBC Salford, which has been truly transformational up in the north-west. If money were not an issue in the public sector, I would be saying, “Absolutely, let’s continue to find more money for the BBC to provide TV licences to an even larger group of people.”

[Mark Menzies]

I think it was part of the overall negotiation. Look at the package that was agreed, which included the end of top-slicing—a considerable liability that the BBC itself felt was an unfair burden on it under the previous settlement—and responsibility for broader licence fee management. Looking at it like that, I think it is a fair settlement during a difficult financial period.

It is easy to castigate the Government’s move on measures such as this, but look at it against the backdrop I have outlined. There is more money for the BBC and also an agreement from the BBC. This was not objected to or protested against by the BBC management. They are not raising this as an unfair charge, in a way that at times the previous BBC management cited the issue of broadband top-slicing as unfair. The Government noticed that was unfair, acted upon it and removed it.

[Graham Jones]

The hon. Gentleman is making a passionate defence and trying to justify the Government’s position. I applaud him for trying to make the best of what is a bad job. He talks about fairness and says that it is the 65-year-old licence fee payer who will subsidise the 75-year-old. There are twice as many over-75 TV licence holders in Beverley and Holderness as in Hyndburn. Where is the fairness in pensioners in Hyndburn subsidising pensioners in Beverley and Holderness, where there are twice as many free TV licences?

[Mark Menzies]

If you will forgive me, Mr Streeter, I will not get into the debate of whether Beverley and Holderness or Hyndburn should be the ultimate beneficiaries, because that is ultimately about Lancashire and Yorkshire—a subject I will stay well away from.

I conclude by saying I appreciate the efforts of the Opposition in raising this point, but we have to appreciate that, at the end of this settlement, the BBC will have more resources going into it.

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[Louise Haigh]

I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Graham Jones]

I have a couple of points that I would like the Government to consider on clause stand part and why there is a deficiency, not only in the Bill but in all the other regulations, guidance and advice that support it.

My first point is simply that people the length and breadth of this country are sick and fed up of direct marketing. They are sick and fed up of the back of their doors having a mound of unwanted mail that they have to dispose of, which has come from companies that they have no interest in. I have a high number of empty properties—2,500—in my area, and in some cases this goes beyond being a nuisance and an aggravation, and becomes a fire hazard. We have mounds of direct mail behind the door, and it is never-ending and never stops.

People receive not only physical mail but email. Businesses the length and breadth of Britain—I have made the point that this is not a business-friendly Bill and it should be, as it is a Digital Economy Bill—are sick and fed up of their email boxes being stuffed full of unwanted emails, which are costing them a fortune as they have to put someone on them to go through them. It has got to stop. We have to act as a Parliament, and the Government have got to sit up and take notice. How much is this costing British businesses? How much is it aggravating UK citizens?

These companies seem to get away with it. There is a free-for-all at the minute. There is no way anyone can tell me that a mound of mail does not come through my letterbox weekly or there is not a long sequence of unwanted emails in my inbox, and no one can tell me that companies in my constituency and every other constituency do not face huge costs.

[Kevin Brennan]

My hon. Friend is right about that wider point, even though the clause deals particularly with calls. I do not know about him, but I am fed up of receiving calls even in my parliamentary office—I know that other hon. Members have had this—from energy companies, which continually seek to talk to me about energy bills. Does he agree that if the problem is getting to the heart of Parliament, it really is getting out of hand?

[Graham Jones]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. As busy MPs, the last thing we want is to deal with that. I will come to clause 77, which is about marketing calls—all these things are interlinked. As he says, we get a mound of marketing calls, as do businesses. They are piling up, and they are unwanted.

I appeal to the Government to consider introducing mandatory pro formas in all these fields—marketing calls, but also email, direct mail and conventional snail mail. On a letter, I want to see the name and address of the people who sent it, so that I can tick the box saying “no more mail” and stick it back in that red box. I want to know how they have got my information, too. On digital communications, I want to see a pro forma on the bottom that says, “No more. I don’t want to receive any more. How did you get my details, and which company are you?” I want straightforward pro formas on the bottom of all those things. On marketing calls, I want those who are calling to have to explain explicitly who they are and where they got the data from and ask, “Do you wish to proceed with the call?” That would be very helpful. Having pro formas on all that marketing would empower individuals. This is about taking back control and empowering the UK citizen against some of these things, and simple pro formas would go a long way to helping that.

I ask the Government to consider introducing some amelioration or making some concession on this issue on Report. The British people would be eternally grateful to the Minister. He would become legendary in this place. His career path would be stratospheric. He would have helped so many people on a daily basis that he would be remembered forever as the Minister who resolved the issue of direct marketing calls. He has an opportunity to do that. A pro forma would suffice.

I come to a second issue: the exposés that, sadly, all too frequently appear on our television screens, on Channel 4 or “Panorama”. Every now and again, we hear scandals about marketing companies that act on behalf of charities and raise money through telemarketing. Those scandals often reveal undesirable elements and policies in those companies that go against the grain of what it is to be a British citizen. Those marketing calls must be dealt with, and clause 77 fails to deal with—

[The Chair]

Order. It may help the hon. Gentleman to know that clause 77 is not intended to deal with the kinds of TV issues that he is concerned about. It is concerned with telephone calls, texts and emails.

[Graham Jones]

Yes. The Minister must look at marketing calls from companies seeking money on behalf of charities. Those scandals must go on no longer. I ask him to address that matter. He could take several measures that do not cause distress but identify the skimming off of huge amounts by those companies, which target easy pickings from the old, the vulnerable and people with dementia. That is unacceptable. Those marketing scandals must not continue.

[Mark Menzies]

If I may briefly comment with regard to the direct marketing code of practice, I first welcome wholeheartedly the Minister’s desire to accept the terms of new clause 34, proposed by the hon. Member for Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk. This is a blight for all our constituents, regardless of which side of the House we sit on.

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[Matt Hancock]

The hon. Member for Hyndburn made an impassioned plea. I recognise the long-standing interest of my hon. Friend the Member for Fylde in this issue and the work he has done.

[Graham Jones]

A Lancashire alliance!

[Matt Hancock]

There is a real Lancashire alliance to ensure people do not get pestered. The clause will place a statutory duty on the Information Commissioner to publish a direct marketing code of practice. I am sure that the Information Commissioner will have heard the plea for a pro forma, which could appear in such statutory guidance.

We all know, from being sent emails that we are not interested in, how powerful it is almost always to have an “unsubscribe” link at the bottom; we can get rid of a lot of junk by clicking that. Nuisance calls continue to blight people’s lives, particularly the vulnerable, who rely on their phones as a main point of contact. So far in 2016, the Information Commissioner’s Office has issued fines totalling £1.5 million to companies behind nuisance marketing. Those firms were responsible for 70 million calls and more than half a million spam text messages. That should give the Committee a feel of the scale of the problem.

We think that the new code will support a reduction in the number of unwanted direct marketing calls by making it easier for the Information Commissioner to take effective action against organisations in breach of the direct marketing code under the Data Protection Act and the privacy and electronic communications regulations. In response to the specific question whether this applies also to snail mail, the answer is yes. The mail preference service to which individuals can subscribe to prevent direct marketing mail already exists but is also covered by the statutory code of practice.

[Graham Jones]

Does the Minister agree that it would bring not only function but pleasure to have a return mailing address on the front, so that we could take no more and shove this mail back in the red box?

[Matt Hancock]

I am sure the Information Commissioner will have heard the hon. Gentleman’s plea. There is such logic and force behind it that I am sure it will be taken into account.