Cities and Local Government Devolution [Lords] Bill

Debate between Graham Allen and Jonathan Edwards

Wednesday 21st October 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Graham Allen]

Before I begin, I should inform the Committee of the breaking news that our good friend Michael Meacher, the right hon. Member for Oldham West and Royton, has passed away. He was a good friend to many people in this House, and I am sure there will be an appropriate moment for us all to pay tribute to a fine parliamentarian and good friend.

This is my first opportunity to put on record my gratitude and the thanks of the House to my hon. Friend the Member for Stockport (Ann Coffey), who seized the opportunity to produce a magnificent report on areas in and around her constituency. I hope she will take great pleasure in the fact that the Government are now actively considering creating a What Works institution to address the sexual abuse of children. It will ensure not only that people are not victimised, but that perpetrators do not repeat their offences. I hope she feels that her work has been rewarded. I know that was not what she was looking for, but she put a great amount of energy and thought into a very difficult subject.

Turning to the Bill, I want us to think about where we might be in 2020. As I said on Second Reading, I suspect there will be at least one more devolution Bill—possibly two—so the Bill under discussion is getting the ball rolling, and as we progress I think that many of the edges to which Members on both sides of the Committee have rightly referred will be knocked off.

If the Government were minded to approve the 38 bids they have received, that would give devolution to about 80% of English local authorities. There is, therefore, not a lot more to do in terms of taking coverage further, but there is a lot more to be done in a number of specific areas. I hope that the Minister, who kindly said he would listen carefully to my remarks on my proposed amendments, will be able to use them and others to ensure that we get a practical devolution settlement that sticks and delivers for people. That cannot happen under this Bill, which is about beginning the evolution of the process. I commend the Government for that.

I am pleased to see present one colleague from the Scottish National party, the hon. Member for Glasgow Central (Alison Thewliss). Whatever our differences with the SNP, it is not the only party that got votes in Scotland at the general election, although one could be forgiven for sometimes thinking that that was the case. In fact, if we were operating under a proportional system, many more Labour, Conservative and Liberal Members of Parliament would be representing Scotland.

Putting that aside, we can learn a great many things from the package given by the Westminster Parliament to Scotland after intense negotiations. It could be used as a template for further English, Welsh and Northern Irish devolution. We should try, with a lot of humility, to understand how the package—which resulted from negotiations prior to the referendum—works, how it came about and how it could be applied to the rest of the UK. The answer to any argument in favour of separatism is that everybody in the United Kingdom should enjoy the maximum amount of devolution and run as much of their own affairs as possible, whether that be nationally—as in Scotland, Wales, England and Northern Ireland—locally, or at the level below that of the local council.

[Jonathan Edwards]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for tempting me to intervene on him. Does he share my disappointment with the draft Wales Bill, which was published with much fanfare yesterday, but which pales into insignificance when compared with the powers made available to Scotland? The ad hoc nature of devolution across the UK is inherently unstable. Of course, my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow Central (Alison Thewliss) and I want to go further than the Scottish settlement, but surely that is the benchmark we should be working towards.

[Mr Allen]

Unless there is a written settlement, there has to be an evolutionary settlement and someone has to pile in first, make the breakthrough and be a pioneer. In terms of the nations of the United Kingdom, that has been Scotland. All those who contributed to that devolved settlement—including, obviously, Donald Dewar, but also the Scottish Constitutional Convention and many others in civic society—deserve acclaim for their achievements. It is up to the rest of us, whether we are in Wales, England or Northern Ireland, to go through the gap and say, “Devolution is a great thing.” It is not an expedient to buy off Scotland, but a matter of principle that should be applied equally, and at an appropriate pace, to Wales, England and Northern Ireland.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Allen]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. A proper redistribution mechanism—whether it is based on the amount received from income tax, business rates or any other taxation—must be in place; otherwise the system could be distorted and deeply unfair. That is why my amendments, which my hon. Friend will have read, suggest that equalisation should be central to the process; otherwise we will end up with the disjointedness he mentions.

[Jonathan Edwards]

In addition to the point made by the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones), does the hon. Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen) think there is a relationship between fiscal decentralisation and the geographical wealth of the countries that he mentioned, including the United States, which is far more balanced than the gross imbalances in the UK?

[Mr Allen]

No, I do not believe that is the case. That happens everywhere. Although I am very much an ardent devolver, I believe there is always a place for the federal level. President Clinton was not denied his wish to introduce Head Start to every state in the union. He did not impose it, but he offered it as a federal programme and virtually every state picked it up. Devolution would not diminish our role in this place to do good things, and it certainly should not diminish our role in insisting on the sort of equalisation that my hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) has in mind.

Electoral Registration and Administration Bill

Debate between Graham Allen and Jonathan Edwards

Monday 25th June 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Allen]

It is a great pleasure to speak again on these very important issues and, in particular, on the amendments before us, regarding the civic duty that we all have to vote, and the question of what a society does when, in a voluntaristic democracy, some individuals consistently refuse to play by the rules, to play their part and to carry out their share of the democratic duty that should fall on all of us.

We have heard a lot about the sacrifices that people have made, and I will not go over those issues again, but, when one looks at the history books and sees what sacrifices people made to achieve the vote, one finds that it adds great resonance to our debate. We have all had the experience of people who say, “Well, I don’t bother. I don’t even register. A plague on all your houses —it doesn’t mean anything to me.” As far as I am concerned, that is breaking the social contract that we all have when we commit to serving our democracy. If we do not maintain, hone and develop that social contract, we leave the door open for those who would take away our very democracy.

Therefore, on behalf of the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee, I am taking what might at first sight appear to be a rather draconian view. It is that, in extreme circumstances, after many warnings and much discussion, there should be a power—a reserve power—to fine those who deliberately flout the rules and regulations of registration.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

How did the hon. Gentleman’s Committee come up with the figure of £500?

[Mr Allen]

I do not think that any science was involved in coming to that figure; the Committee felt that it should be pitched at a reasonable level. If it were pitched lower—at a parking or traffic-offence level—it might be regarded less seriously. Where it is actually pitched is a matter for debate and for the Government, but I hope that they will listen to people who say that, on the very rare occasions when a prosecution takes place, such offences should be met with an adequate fine.

I am not suggesting that everyone who fails to register should be fined £500. We heard that in a whole year in this country, people were prosecuted for non-registration only 67 times. That is not quite one in a million, but such prosecutions are a very rare occurrence. However, we need the power to fine so that people understand how seriously we take the matter.

I congratulate the Government again on how they have moved on a number of these issues. I am delighted to be joined by a member of my Select Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore), who participated in our debates and made sure that so many of our proposals were put in a way that allowed the Government to accept them and take the Bill forward.

Like the other Committee members, my hon. Friend will remember the early days when it appeared that our electoral system was almost being marketised or commodified by some of the phraseology around at the time. Our right to vote—our democracy—is, in the Committee’s opinion, a civic duty and I am delighted that the Government have reaffirmed that. It is not a consumer choice; it is not a punt, a bet or going down the shops—it is about how we run our society. There are alternatives to democracy; it is important that it is healthy and strong and that everybody participates in it.