(6 years, 9 months ago)
Westminster HallWestminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir David. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Hartlepool (Mike Hill) for introducing the debate, with crispness but with insight. The truth of the matter is that a lot of water has run under the bridge since the e-petition was initiated. Members will have seen in the Library briefing that it was put together before the general election was called. Debate on it was therefore postponed. As I say, a lot of water has run under the bridge—under our bridge, and the Minister’s also perhaps—since then, but the reality that prompted 166,000 people to add their names to the petition remains the same. The current system of fees at record highs, and potentially rising in the years ahead, is unsustainable.
This has been a good-natured, thoughtful debate, with some excellent contributions from both sides of the House. This is the first time I have heard the hon. Member for North East Derbyshire (Lee Rowley), and I pay tribute to his speech. There are always different ways of looking at how things have gone. He cited the figures on participation in education that are handed out by Tory Whips at every Education questions, and they are true, in certain areas and in certain cohorts of young people. However, we have to think not simply about young people but about people of all ages, because that is a key issue we will face in the next 10 years. Indeed, among young people themselves, there are disturbing signs regarding completion, which I will mention later, making the picture perhaps not quite as rosy as the hon. Gentleman suggests.
We have had some excellent contributions from Labour Members. My hon. Friend the Member for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick) not only reminded himself and me of our mortality in this place, but also the Chair, which may or may not be a good thing to do. The truth of the matter is exactly as he said. People forget, of course, that the decisions taken in 1998 were the result of the Dearing report. The report had a consensus in this House, because of the issues it needed to address, but even then, there were many concerns about maintenance grants, as my hon. Friend rightly said.
Maynard Keynes famously said:
“When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?”
That is one reason why the Labour party is now committed to what we said we would do in our manifesto. The loss to the Exchequer, in my view and, I think, that of many, of the funding processes is becoming unsustainable.
The huge amount of erudition and reference with which my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds North West (Alex Sobel) spoke did not affect the fact that he stressed, absolutely rightly, that the current Government in particular—the previous Government under David Cameron were also guilty of this—have an obsession with an ideological viewpoint which, as I have said before, could have come from the pages of Ayn Rand, in the sense that they regard higher education principally as a private consumable, although from time to time they throw bits of food off the table to the public good. That is one issue with which Opposition Members and progressive Government Members take strong issue. It must be remembered that Bahram Bekhradnia, whom my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds North West mentioned—the Chilean example he gave was a fascinating one—was not only a distinguished director of the Higher Education Policy Institute, which the Minister and I frequently use to bounce ideas off, but a director for 10 years, so he knew what he was talking about.
I was pleased with and interested in the contribution by my hon. Friend the Member for Reading East (Matt Rodda). He made points about the negative—if I can put it this way—nudge impact on groups of people, and he talked particularly about the south-east. From a northern perspective, one reason we were not happy with the freezing of the threshold was that it brought more and more graduates in the north and the midlands into the repayment trap too early. We should see in this whole process the problems of repayment.
The hon. Member for Glasgow North West (Carol Monaghan), whom I was pleased to work with on the Higher Education and Research Bill, made a number of interesting points, some of which I agreed with, some of which I did not. She talked about the impact of fees on English students, but the Government’s fee policies affect, and the tuition fees e-petition concerns, not just English students but tens of thousands of students enrolled in higher education in further education colleges, like mine in Blackpool. The issue also affects thousands of Scottish students in England and thousands of students from Northern Ireland. The Minister might want to pause for thought, because the Democratic Unionist party has been less than keen on tuition fees. That was why the DUP absented itself from our tuition fees debate in the main Chamber on 13 September and why the Government had to flee the field on that occasion and were forced to allow our Opposition motion to pass unopposed. The Minister should have a care not to rub his DUP colleagues up the wrong way, otherwise there might be an addition to that £1 billion down payment for their support.
The tuition fee changes that the Government put through before the general election saw the basic rate for tuition fees rise from £6,000 to £6,250 a year. The higher rate moved from £9,000 to £9,250. According to the Sutton Trust’s recent report, “Fairer Fees”, the average debt for students is £46,000. Student fees in the UK are 10 times higher than the European average and twice as high as in the US. In June this year, the Institute for Fiscal Studies sounded further alarms about the Government’s direction of travel. It said:
“Replacing maintenance grants with loans…results in students from low-income families graduating with the highest debt levels, in excess of £57,000.”
It also said that
“changes since 2012 have increased the repayments of almost all graduates, increasing the burden of student loans the most for low and middle earners”.
I have made reference to this elsewhere in the House, but the University and College Union commissioned a report from London Economics that was published on 20 July. It suggested that thousands of graduates will suffer a midlife tax crisis from the repayment of accrued interest on student loans. With a ninefold increase in inflation from 0.3% in April 2016—before the Brexit referendum—that will now get radically worse. None of these things exactly hangs out a welcome sign to young people who have got a place or hope to go to university, and that is significant.
The Sutton Trust has issued Members with a factsheet on student debt, but it has also done research that shows that in 2017, financial worries about HE were particularly pronounced, and they increased in families with low levels of affluence. Some 66% of those families were worried, as compared with 46% in high-affluence households. It is no wonder that the results of the survey of student experience by the Higher Education Policy Institute and the Higher Education Academy show that just 35% believe that their higher education experience represented good or very good value for money.
I have talked about the issues around the drop-out rate. Two recent reports from the Office for Fair Access and the Social Market Foundation point to growing drop-out rates, particularly among students from disadvantaged backgrounds. I have already referred to the Sutton Trust survey. It showed the poorest statistics in eight years for school students wanting to plan for higher education.
I will raise a point that the Government seem to neglect. I have talked before about the fact that we can nudge people away from things as well as towards them. The issue is not just a question of the increasing pressure on those who have taken out loans and how that affects their social mobility; it is also a question of how that puts off people who might want to go to higher education in the first place. By its very nature, that is much less quantifiable, but it is a real factor that needs to be discussed.
What is clearly part of the equation is the impact on part-time and mature students. The main casualties of the increases in tuition fees since 2012 from £3,000 to £9,000 have been mature students and part-time learners. In England, there has been a 60% drop in the number of part-time students since 2010-11. The Minister has said on several occasions that he thinks the argument is far more complex than that, but many people, including me, think that the statistics tell their own story. We simply cannot afford to have that haemorrhaging in the involvement of those groups.
The skills figures are stark: only 13% of the 9.5 million people in the UK who are considering higher education in the next five years are school leavers. The majority are working adults. There is a social dimension to the issue. That is underlined by the fact that one in five undergraduate entrants in England from low-participation neighbourhoods choose—or for financial reasons perhaps have no other option—to study part time. Those are the sorts of people being affected. Even the Minister’s distinguished predecessor Lord Willetts has now admitted that the decisions the Government made in 2012 to treble tuition fees—at that time, the fees were buttressed by various safety mechanisms for social mobility, but those were then stripped away by subsequent Governments—weaken that argument about social mobility still further.
Those are not good bases on which this or any Government should defend the current system. Indeed, there is a palpable and growing realisation that the Government’s settlement for higher education is divisive and financially unstable, especially in regard to tuition fees. Keith Burnett, the vice-chancellor of Sheffield University, put it sharply in a Times Higher Education article in June:
“With total debt forecast to hit £200 billion in six years and to pass £1 trillion by 2045, it will dwarf credit card debt”.
On the basis of the Government’s disappointing general election results—it is important we recognise that it was not just students who turned against them in a big way; it was young people in general, because the student issue and how the Government were dealing with it was seen as emblematic of their attitude towards young people in general—it is not surprising that there has been lively discussion in government about what should be done. The First Secretary of State acknowledged that student debt was a huge issue. The Leader of the House spoke about it, although she did not come forward to discuss matters properly. One of the leading members of the Government—if one is to believe what one hears, he is very much a darling of Tory activists—the Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union, the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis), is on record as saying in 2010 that he opposed the plans to increase fees to as much as £9,000 a year. He said
“that is something I don’t believe we can allow to continue. I have always been against tuition fees. In 2005 our policy was abolition and I was one of the drivers behind that.”
That is the reality of where we stand today. The Government have conceded that the situation with fees is unsatisfactory. If they thought the current system was working well and would be sustainable in the long term, they would not have tinkered with it at the Conservative conference, where they capped the fee rise to £9,250 and increased the repayment threshold of student loans. As one of the central announcements in her conference speech, the Prime Minister committed to a review of HE funding and student finance, but the Minister has yet to reveal the details of that review. At the conference and subsequently, he seemed singularly unhappy about associating himself with the review. The Chancellor failed to mention it in the Budget, so will the Minister let us know the terms of reference for the review? Will it be a full consultation? When will it be brought back?
I know that the further education sector is very close to my hon. Friend’s heart. I just left the reception of the London region of the Association of Colleges where there was great dismay that the Government have been almost silent on the future arrangements for the further education sector. That is similar to the absence of any clarity on where the Government are generally going in this whole area that my hon. Friend is outlining.
I thank my hon. Friend for raising the situation in further education colleges, because a number of FE colleges, including in my constituency, took the leap of faith in the late 2000s—very much encouraged by the then Labour Government—and set up higher education departments. Those higher education departments must be allowed to flourish, but it seems they are bearing not only the burdens that I am talking about generally, but particular burdens because of the nature of the young people they take in. It is a double whammy, because they take in young people from poorer backgrounds, who are precisely the sort of people most likely to be put off by rising fees. They also take in older people who wish to reskill and retrain, and they too are precisely the sort of people likely to be put off. We know that because we see what is happening with the advanced learning loans that the Government introduced progressively, largely but not entirely for further education, where 60% of the money put out in those advanced learning loans—the figure has barely changed—year by year has remained the same. That is a crisis for FE colleges, but it is also a particular crisis for HE in FE colleges.
Our plans would uprate the funding to universities in line with inflation, whereas the Government’s plans basically impose a real-terms cut in funding. Of course, rising fees might have been easier to swallow if they had been put back into the system, but, again, as MillionPlus has said, and as has been referred to today, there has been no increase in direct grant available from Government for university courses in the arts, humanities, social sciences, architecture and economics to name a few of the subjects affected since 2014-15. That means universities are now required to fund programmes that previously were supported by Government, and there has been a decline in capital investment and an 80% cut in the teaching grant. Will the Minister confirm how much funding in real terms universities will lose in each of the next five years as a result of their current position and their decision to freeze fees?
Now that the Government have increased the student loan repayment threshold, whatever else it might mean for the benefit or otherwise of the students concerned, it means that they are going to miss their own RAB target by around 15%, so will the Minister confirm whether they will revise the target?
The University and College Union got it right when it responded to the Chancellor’s Budget statement. It said:
“The glaring omission from today’s speech was any support for current higher education students, or further detail on the Prime Minister’s promised review of university funding in England.”
That is why we have persistently, in both the HE and FE Bills that came through before the general election, argued the case for much greater focus on some of the groups who will be affected by that. That should go to the heart of the way in which student loans are handed out at the moment. The Minister knows that the Student Loans Company has recently been the subject of controversy, but the issue, which I will not dwell on today, of overpayments and how that has affected many students brings us back to the point that the Government and the Student Loans Company are operating a system that is beginning quite significantly to fail. If the nature of the Student Loans Company board or the Office for Students board were perhaps slightly broader than they are at the moment, more light might be shed on this area.
We appreciate the fact that the Chancellor has listened to our call for proper information sharing between HMRC and the Student Loans Company. Even though it has been postponed until 2019, I hope that that will have a major impact on the current situation. A great deal of thought needs to be given to any major changes in student finance, but the direction of travel matters. We are clear about our direction of travel. We would build bridges for people and not put barriers in their way via a series of measures that stress private good as opposed to public good and which keep people in silos.
(10 years, 5 months ago)
Westminster HallWestminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Eric Ollerenshaw). My party affiliation in the report is spelled with a small “l”, but I was actually a member of the Transport Committee for at least part of the inquiry, so that is still unexplained.
I want to make a few brief comments on the Government’s response to some of the Select Committee’s recommendations. Point 1 of the response quotes the Select Committee as recommending that the
“DfT should act as an advocate for ports”.
I was somewhat disappointed by the response.
As I said in the previous debate, the road safety Minister, the hon. Member for Scarborough and Whitby (Mr Goodwill), is held in high regard; the shipping Minister, the hon. Member for Wimbledon (Stephen Hammond), is also held in high regard by the industry and those of us who take interest in such matters because of the work that he has done. He knows as well as I do the plethora of organisations involved in shipping—the UK Chamber of Shipping, the UK Major Ports Group, the British Ports Association, Hutchison Ports, Peel Ports, the London Gateway, the Port of London Authority, TfL, Maritime UK and others. The industry has really come together in the past five years to speak with one voice, which has given them much greater authority.
To the Minister’s credit, the Government have responded to that and created the joint Cabinet Committee; the Minister has been instrumental in ensuring that that Committee has been organised and that meetings are arranged. My disappointment is perhaps caused by the fact that the Government could have made a lot more of saying, “We are giving leadership.” Their response to the report does not say that they are doing anything. There is a little omission there; they missed a trick in terms of demonstrating just how committed to shipping they have been, and hopefully will continue to be.
I should say that I am in the middle of an Industry and Parliament Trust fellowship on logistics, and I would like to thank Associated British Ports for its assistance. I have visited Southampton, Immingham and other establishments in the course of my fellowship. It has been extremely useful for me to see what is happening on the ground.
I would like to make a couple more comments, if I may. I want to pick up on the points made by my hon. Friend the Chair of the Transport Committee and the hon. Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood about short-sea and coastal shipping. Point 6 of the Government response refers to the Select Committee’s disappointment that the waterborne freight grant has been so ineffective, and my hon. Friend asked what its successor is going to be. The Government response states:
“State Aid approval will be needed”—
blah, blah, blah—
“which limits the potential design of any scheme.”
Does that limit the UK’s ability to devise a new scheme? Or does it limit our ability to get the European Commission’s approval because of the 2015 re-start? Is it our responsibility or are we going to have to wait for the Commission?
The Minister knows that coastal shipping is a much-undervalued policy area. Look at the pressure on freight and our major road networks—how much more could be accomplished if we could use short-sea and coastal shipping to take heavy goods vehicles off our roads and transport their cargo by sea? That would be a win-win for everyone concerned, particularly shipping. It would perhaps not be as good for the road freight industry, but that already undertakes a large volume of business. As the Government keep telling us, the economy is picking up, so there should be more freight and more opportunity. Perhaps we should be looking at alternatives.
[Mrs Annette Brooke in the Chair]
I want to look at point 8 in the conclusion of the Government’s response, and return to the point I made at the start of my speech. Will the Minister spell out some more detail on the joint Committee on shipping, how much it has accomplished and what the Government are doing? Will he elaborate on the perennial conflict, raised in point 8, that we in Britain are not nationalistic enough when it comes to promoting our own industries and manufacturing? Look at what the French and German Governments do by way of investing in train companies and in manufacturing infrastructure.
British shipping and ports are proud of what they do. They look to the continent and see state subsidies and Government support, and ask, a little jealously, “Why are there two different rules?” Will the Minister therefore say a little more on the EU versus UK approach? The industry is of course worried about the prospect of a new EU directive, and I know that the Government are doing everything they can to protect our port interest in that respect. Perhaps the Minister would like to reinforce that sentiment.
It is nice to see you in the Chair, Mrs Brooke—I apologise for not noticing the personnel change earlier. My final point relates to what my hon. Friend the Chair of the Select Committee outlined in her speech. The significance and importance of shipping is all but invisible to the country, other than to those of us who are involved in one way or another. There is a great story to tell about a hugely successful British industry that directly or indirectly employs hundreds of thousands of people and makes a massive contribution to UK GDP.
Given how scarce Government business currently is in the House because of the lack of legislation—we have been criticised in the media for having extra holidays and so on—and the expectation that the legislative programme next year will be equally light, as the coalition partners divest themselves of such activity to reinforce their respective identities in the run-up to the general election, I suggest to the Minister that a debate on shipping in Government time, to promote shipping, ports, coastal shipping, maritime industry, the businesses, unions and personnel, would be supported by everyone. Such a debate would also be welcomed strongly by the industry.
I am sorry to interrupt my hon. Friend, but he will be aware that last year there was the highly successful London shipping week, which was warmly praised by all sectors. Some of us hope that such events may go beyond London, with all due respect, but does he agree that that would be an admirable week in which to have such a debate?
My hon. Friend makes a good point. London shipping week was an animal created by the new unified voice of shipping, supported by the Government. It was a great showcase and very successful. I know that the plan is to ensure that next time it extends way beyond London to be celebrated in as many of our major ports as possible.
I strongly suggest to the Minister that the debate would be better timed if held in the autumn, six months ahead, so that it could be used as a springboard to promote next year’s UK shipping week. I am sure the Secretary of State for Transport, who I know is sometimes embarrassed by his attitude to aviation because of his aversion to flying, would have no such aversion to leading a shipping debate, and I know his hon. Friend, the shipping Minister, would do an excellent job of winding up such a debate. I am sure the Transport Committee would get behind such an initiative.