Apprenticeships (Small Businesses)

Debate between Gordon Birtwistle and Marcus Jones

Thursday 9th June 2011 Westminster Hall

[Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con)]

It is a matter of concern, particularly when I visit manufacturing businesses in my constituency, that the employees have an average age between 45 and 60. Is that not a worry?

[Gordon Birtwistle]

I agree. That was to be my next point. A company in Burnley called Aircelle makes thrust reversers for the Trent jet engine. Three years ago the company employed 350 people; it now employs 800 people and has work for 15 years. Aircelle has been offered work from Boeing and other aircraft manufacturers, but has to turn it away because it does not have the skills.

I used to work for the company when it was called Lucas Aerospace, which was a long, long while ago. I walked around the place, and I said to the managing director, “I look at some of the people here and I remember them working here when I did, and I’ve been retired for three years. Some of these guys must be coming up for retirement.” He replied, “The age profile is a big concern because more than 80% of the work force is 40-plus.”

Another big problem for the company is that young people coming into the industry want to be designers and technicians, working on computers on the other side, and the guys who put the aircraft engine parts together are in short supply. It is a problem getting skilled fitters and process workers to come and do the job. The company is now a world leader in composites, but it is very difficult to get people to come and work on composite design and manufacture. Fortunately, it is using a lot of young ladies to do that now; because of the dexterity of their fingers, they are able to mould things in carbon fibre. I agree entirely that this is an issue that the Government must pick up. We must ensure not only that we train people to do the real top jobs but that we train young people to come in and do the jobs that involve physically making things.

As I said, at Burnley college we are having a manufacturing summit on 20 June. The council there has worked with the college. We spent £100,000 from the working neighbourhoods fund, and three years ago the college put in a further £100,000 to buy three Mazak advanced machine tools. The hon. Member for Worcester (Mr Walker) will know of Mazak because the company is based in his constituency. The college ran an engineering course but could not get anyone to go on it, but as soon as we put in the Mazak machine tools the course was overwhelmed, because young people see that they can work in an office and a workshop and design a product, go on a computer and feed the design into the machine, and then make the product on the new CNC—computer numerical control—machine. They can see that it is a great job for the future. The days of what I call the garage on “Coronation Street” with engineers in blue overalls with oily rags in their pockets have long gone.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Jones]

As usual, my hon. Friend has made a pertinent comment, which brings me on to my next point. Useful work experience can be obtained in voluntary organisations. Similarly, I am a firm believer in part-time work, in which I was active in my younger days, particularly when I was at school and college. Part-time work is invaluable to young people in developing soft skills—my hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester mentioned that earlier—and in relation to integrating into and learning about the workplace environment, which, to be perfectly frank, is completely different from a school or college environment. Young people going into a workplace are not dealing with teachers or their peers; all of a sudden, they are working with people who have been involved in the industry for many years and are not accustomed to somebody fresh and green from a school environment.

We must acknowledge that opportunities for part-time work for our young people, although important, are extremely limited. Although I acknowledge that we must do all that we can to keep our young people safe and ensure that they are not exploited in any way, we must consider the regulations that many employers face when employing youngsters part-time, which go far beyond health and safety. I received a useful briefing on employing children from the House of Commons Library, and I was astounded by the number of regulations that it contained. I would be surprised if many employers knew those regulations. If they did, it would frighten them to death to take on any young person part-time.

For example, the document states that young people may not deliver milk or work in a butcher shop. When I was that age, many of my peers did such work. I delivered milk with the Co-op milkman—I am not sure whether the milkman should have allowed me to deliver milk with him, but I went out and delivered it all the same. Many of my peers at school used to work for one of the local butchers part-time, and they gained invaluable experience. If we are to enable our youngsters to gain such invaluable experience now, we must ensure that we look carefully at the regulations to ensure that we put barriers in the way only when absolutely necessary. We must also consider removing a great deal of the bureaucracy, including what appears to be a draconian reporting culture, that employers must undertake. Does the Minister think that it is a healthy position effectively to bar youngsters from taking on many part-time jobs? Does he not agree that we should free up regulations in a sensible way?

[Gordon Birtwistle]

I had occasion a couple of years ago to question some young people about what they wanted to do when they finished school. One of them said that he wanted to be a benefit claimant. Does the hon. Gentleman think that working part-time for somebody might take that idea out of that boy’s head and help him change his view, so that he wanted to go into work rather than being a benefit claimant for the rest of his life?

[Mr Jones]

I totally agree. That is part of the problem, which my hon. Friend has highlighted. There is a culture in certain parts of this country in which work is frowned upon. I am glad to say that we now have a Government who want to get this country and our young people working and create a culture of work, rather than one in which being kept—staying at home and collecting benefits—is a job choice, not a safety net.

That brings me to the other risk that employers in my constituency tell me about, which concerns employee retention after several years have been spent training a young apprentice. Obviously, the costs of that training are borne by the Government, in the main, but there are also costs to the employer in training people on the job. Employers are concerned that a young person will come in, serve an apprenticeship and leave. In certain trades, including the craft trades such as bricklaying, plumbing and so on, people can quickly set up as self-employed workers, and employers are concerned that they will invest their time and money in training young people who will either get a job elsewhere or set up on their own. We must address that, whether through an incentive scheme for employers or by other means. We must do all that we can to encourage employers to take people on and overcome those risks.

We need to consider the barriers to career progression that make things more difficult for employers, particularly those who have younger employees. That was highlighted to me on a visit to MES Systems in my constituency, which has two fantastic young apprentices whom I met. One of the apprentices had just finished his time and had qualified as an installer of security equipment, but unfortunately that young man will have to spend this coming year working for somebody else, not because he cannot do the job independently but because the company could not get insurance on the van that he needed to drive to get around independently. That is a major impediment not only for the young person who is not getting the experience of working independently but for the employer, who knows that additional work is available but is hamstrung by the fact that that he cannot send a person out to do that work, allowing him to take on another apprentice. That is the type of barrier that we need to think carefully about.

To touch on another constituency scenario, I spoke to the principal of a firm of accountants several weeks ago. The Minister will be glad to hear that he is looking to take on four apprentices as trainee accountants, but I am sad to report that to date, he cannot fill those vacancies, which is a sad indictment of careers advice and the link between employers, schools and FE colleges. It is important for the Government to tackle that issue. I hope that the all-age careers service will help with the quality of advice that our young people get, so that they can have proper careers and receive independent advice based on getting a job rather than on trying to meet exam targets or school or college league table targets. To many youngsters, that is important, but to some it is not as important as getting straight into employment.