Fuel Poverty (Wales)

Debate between Glyn Davies and Chris Ruane

Tuesday 19th March 2013 Westminster Hall

[Chris Ruane]

I agree entirely and will come to that issue shortly. The TUC in Wales reports that Wales has the lowest levels of disposable income, but the highest falls in living standards. The situation is going to get worse, as my hon. Friend rightly said, because council tax for the poorest will be introduced, although the Welsh Government have mitigated the effect of that by setting aside £22 million for the next year to stop the rise hitting the poorest. Owing to the bedroom tax, someone who has lived in their council house for 50 years but does not want to move, because they love their house and community, will have to find an additional £25 a week. The benefits freeze of 1% could result in people on benefits actually freezing. There is also wage stagflation in Wales.

At the same time, the Government and their allies are giving £44,000 a year extra to a person who earns £1 million a year. The total package is worth £3 billion. Imagine what good work could be done if that money were used to employ unemployed people to insulate the homes of the poorest and most vulnerable.

[Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)]

Does the hon. Gentleman accept that for the whole 13 years of the previous Labour Government, the top rate of tax was 40p? Next year it will be 45p. How on earth can he stand up and say what he just said?

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[Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)]

I look forward to speaking under your chairmanship, Mrs Riordan. I thank the hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane) —I, too, sometimes think of him as the hon. Member for Rhyl—for bringing forward for debate one of the most important issues that we face as Members of Parliament. I may not have agreed with everything that he said in his presentation of the argument, but there is no doubt at all that fuel poverty—the choice between eating and heating that so many people now face—is one of the biggest challenges that we have to address.

Much of what happens is probably beyond our ability to deal with. I do not want to make a political point, but what we saw between 2004 and 2009 was an absolutely massive increase in fuel poverty. We have seen the Library figures. The number of households in fuel poverty in this country increased from 2.5 million to 5.5 million between 2004 and 2009. The reason why I do not want to make this a political point—I suppose I could do if I wanted—is that I accept that an awful lot of that was probably beyond the ability of the former Government to control.

[Chris Ruane]

If the hon. Gentleman has the figures with him, will he tell those of us gathered here today what the figures were in 1994—the first figures in the document—in comparison? They were far higher.

[Glyn Davies]

The first figures are for 1996, but I just made reference to the figures for the period from 2004 to 2009, which saw a massive increase. I simply wanted to draw attention to the fact that even though the Government at the time would have been very committed to protecting people from fuel poverty, there were international conditions that resulted in a massive increase. That is why I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on bringing forward a debate on such an important issue. It is one that faces us all. It is a particularly serious issue in Wales, and there are a number of reasons for that.

Clearly, one reason is that we have less insulated housing stock in Wales. The Welsh Government are seeking to deal with that issue, and here at Westminster we have the drive towards the green deal. Across Britain, we are tackling the issue of home insulation, which is massively important. However, there is one issue that we must always be careful of: all these things add costs to new housing; they make it very difficult to build. One of the worries that we have is that we should be focusing all our attention on making sure that properties are well insulated. That is why I so disagree with the sprinkler system that is being introduced in Wales. That puts a high value on new houses when that value should be coming from making houses more insulated.

The second issue is the higher dependence in Wales on oil, which is more expensive. That is an historical issue. And of course, in Wales—this is a big issue in Rhyl and certainly in the north of my constituency—average wages are lower, which increases the level of fuel poverty.

I commented initially on the huge rise in fuel poverty between 2004 and 2009, much of which was due to the international market, which is outside our control. We are seeing now the pressure that comes from international gas prices—probably the biggest contributor to the increase in energy prices that we have seen—which are outside our control. That means that we must be particularly careful about the additional things, which might not have quite as much impact but are within our control. That is why I want to refer again to an issue that I think my right hon. Friend the Minister will be tired of hearing me talk about: the impact of the environmental taxes that are put on the bottom of our energy bills. We are always told how little a factor that is compared with the international market. We cannot influence the latter, but we can influence the former, and I want to explain why we should reduce that increase.

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[Glyn Davies]

The hon. Lady makes a fair point, which is why I think that we must be incredibly careful. We have to do a great deal of research. It is right that Cuadrilla, the company involved, is making certain that it goes to an awful lot of trouble. If there is somewhere in Britain that is unsuitable, we should not be allowing shale gas drilling there. We can allow it only where the potential for bringing down energy prices is such that we have to go forward with testing and seeing what the potential is.

Most of my objection to onshore wind is due to the impact on not only my constituency but the whole of mid-Wales and, indeed, much of rural Britain—much of the wild land of Britain. There is no doubt at all that the level of subsidy that is paid to the international companies that are going forward with the proposals is obscene. It is the biggest transfer of money from the poor people, very often, to massively rich foreign development companies. This transfer of money is the opposite of what we should be seeing, the like of which I have never seen before. The whole thing is obscene. The Government have reduced the level of subsidy by about 10%—I think the order might have been signed off in the past couple of weeks—but there is much more scope for that.

Other hon. Members have referred to the level of subsidy in relation to solar panels, but the same money will produce an awful lot more solar panels. There was a shock to the system when the new levels were brought in. There was what we hoped was a temporary slowdown in the number of solar developments that went forward. My sense is that that is recovering. I think we are now getting a lot more development for the same money.

The trouble with onshore wind is that it hits people in two ways. One is fuel poverty. Onshore wind hits the poorest people; indeed, it hits everybody. The Government force them to hand over money that is then given to mega foreign companies, which can bribe their way, through community benefit, into the hearts of local people. Well, in mid-Wales, that has not been successful; it is having no impact at all.

The other aspect is that energy prices are driving jobs overseas. More and more companies find that the cost of the energy they need to run their businesses is just too high. We talk about all the jobs that renewable energy and onshore wind will create, but the truth is they will drive jobs and business overseas—not just to Europe, but outside Europe, and that will be devastating.

In general, however, today’s debate is about fuel poverty. I am very supportive of what the hon. Member for Clwyd West—

[Chris Ruane]

Vale of Clwyd.

[Glyn Davies]

Perhaps we should settle on Rhyl. This is a right issue, and it is hugely important. I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on raising it, and I think we will return to it.