Prevention and Suppression of Terrorism

Debate between Gerry Sutcliffe and Richard Fuller

Wednesday 2nd March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Gerry Sutcliffe (Bradford South) (Lab)]

As the Minister said, the threat level to our country remains at “severe”, and the threat of terrorism is never far away. We are a high-profile country that will be holding high-profile events this year and next, so there cannot and should not be any room for complacency.

We should congratulate and thank our security services and police on their co-ordinated work in keeping us all safe. They do a tremendous job, and we know of the plots that have been foiled in the recent period. It is our duty in the House to provide them with the tools and procedures that they need to do their job effectively. Sometimes, that means walking the difficult line between balancing individual freedom and collective safety, with the rights of the wider community sometimes outweighing the rights of the individual. Control orders have been the tool for that.

As has been said, in an ideal world we would not wish to use control orders. It would be greatly preferable if our criminal justice system could deal with terrorists who wished us harm. However, as previous Home Secretaries and Ministers have said, control orders have become a necessary evil. Until an alternative comes forward that gives the same level of protection, we have to accept that.

As the Minister said, this is the sixth annual review of control orders since the power was introduced in the Prevention of Terrorism Act 2005. The order before us provides for the continuation of the power to make a control order against an individual when the Secretary of State has

“reasonable grounds for suspecting that the individual is or has been involved in terrorism-related activity”

and considers it necessary to impose obligations on that individual for the purpose of protecting members of the public from the risk of terrorism. That has to be the major priority for any Government.

Lord Carlile, who was the independent reviewer of terrorism, said in a previous report that one person subject to a control order was

“a dangerous terrorist who would re-engage with terrorism the moment he could.”

That is the type of person we are dealing with. I add my congratulations to Lord Carlile on his nine years in the job. He did a tremendous job, and I know that it challenged his political views on control orders and other terrorism-related matters.

The original intention behind control orders was to deal with foreign terrorists who could not be deported or prosecuted. As the Minister said, eight people are under control orders at the moment, and some of those orders have been made since the coalition Government came to power. As I understand it—he may be able to confirm this or otherwise—the current control orders are all on UK citizens as opposed to foreign nationals.

Yesterday, the Home Secretary announced in the Protection of Freedoms Bill what we see as a weakening of anti-terror legislation. We have also seen the ridiculous situation of the order on 28-day detention being allowed to lapse without the draft emergency legislation being in place. That legislation has now been published, but as yet we do not know when we will discuss it. There may be a difficulty if it is introduced when the House is not sitting and there needs to be a recall of Parliament for us to scrutinise it.

As the Minister said, the Home Secretary wants to repeal control orders, as she said in her statement to the House on 26 January following the belated counter-terrorism review. She said that too much of the 2005 Act was “excessive and unnecessary”, but she and the Minister have admitted that for the foreseeable future there are likely to be a small number of people who pose a real threat to our security but who cannot currently be prosecuted or deported.

We need to know whether the replacement for control orders will be weaker and whether it will protect the country as it should. We would like to hear from the Minister what evidence came from the security services and the police about the new regime that he and the Home Secretary want to introduce. There is a suspicion on our side that it is a political fix to get the Deputy Prime Minister out of a mess, and that it has to do with the reality of being in government as opposed to the rhetoric of Opposition. I say that because the Home Secretary and the Prime Minister realised, on the advice of the security services and the police, that there are dangerous people out there, whom we must tackle. I hope that the new regime is evidence-based, and I will be interested in any evidence that the security forces and the police publish about their viewpoints.

If the Minister is able to respond to the debate in the time available, will he react to the House of Lords Joint Committee report and its recommendations on the scrutiny of the new proposals?

[Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con)]

Some of us recognise that control orders are the jewel in the crown of the previous Government’s authoritarian legislation. The hon. Gentleman said that we are discussing the sixth annual renewal. Does he believe that the existing rules on control orders—that necessary evil—are perfect? If not, did he ever vote them down on the five other occasions they were discussed?

[Mr Sutcliffe]

No. The hon. Gentleman makes a fair point. As I said, every time the matter has been discussed, the Minister of the day has said that it is a difficult matter, and that we much prefer to get to the point of prosecution so that the criminal justice system deals with it. However, as Lord Carlile, who was the independent regulator, found, there are circumstances for which the criminal justice system cannot cater in that way.

[Richard Fuller]

I greatly appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s giving way again. He used the word “weaker”, but a change in the law could be perceived as an improvement rather than a weakening. We should be careful when we use such words because they can have different meanings in different contexts.

[Mr Sutcliffe]

I take the point, but that relates to the parliamentary scrutiny of the new proposals, and perhaps I will deal later with how we can consider that further.

Counter-terrorism policy has to be built on evidence and on advice from the security services and the police, not political fixes. That is important because Members of Parliament do not get the detail of exactly what has occurred. We get the independent reviewer’s report, but we do not get the information about what has happened. Usually the Home Secretary, sometimes on Privy Council advice, gives briefings to the Opposition. When we discuss the new regime, that might be a way forward to work together to try to ensure that we understand what exactly is happening on the ground.

The Minister referred to the replacement legislation in discussing what the Home Secretary said on 26 January. She asked the independent commissioner, David Anderson, to pay particular attention to the new measures in his first report. That is fine, but the Minister used the word “shortly”, which was a favourite of mine when I was a Minister, and means any time between now and a given date a long time in the future. When does the Minister expect the proposed legislation to be available so that we can discuss the various issues that we face?

I particularly want to debate the difference between a curfew and an overnight residence requirement. The Minister mentioned a possible difference in hours, but we will see how we go.

The legislative proposals need to be scrutinised. The new control order regime pays particular attention to surveillance and we are told that sufficient finance will be available for the resource-intensive proposal to the police and the security services. Will the Minister confirm that it will be new money? How will the continuation of the current control order regime deal with the financial cuts that the police and the security services face? How much will the police budget for counter-terrorism be? How will a cut in that budget affect control orders? Is there any likelihood of needing to increase the number of control orders as prisoners detained under counter-terrorism measures are released and returned to our streets? Has any assessment been made of the possible increases in the need for control orders? Another issue that was raised the last time we debated control orders was the cost to the Exchequer arising from legal challenges made by controlees. Will the Minister inform us of those costs?

All hon. Members recognise that the safety and security of the public are difficult issues. We have long-held traditions of individual rights and freedoms, but as I said, given the world that we live in, there is a difficult balance to achieve. Evidence-based policy is vital, and we should err on the side of caution when it comes to the safety of the public. The Opposition will obviously support the extension of the orders this evening. We look forward to the new legislation on how we work and scrutinise what happens. We hope to reach a consensus that meets the requirements of individual freedoms while putting the safety of our country to the fore.