Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures

Debate between Gerry Sutcliffe and Nicholas Dakin

Tuesday 21st January 2014 Commons Chamber

[Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)]

My hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) reminded us at the start of his speech that the first priority of any Government should be to provide national security for its citizens. My right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz) reminded us that, sadly, we are living in dangerous times. Any changes to the regime for dealing with people who threaten our country and our citizens must therefore be dealt with very seriously. That is why the hon. Members for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh) and for South Swindon (Mr Buckland) said that this is too big for party politics. It is an issue on which all political parties should work together in the national interest and, essentially, that is what the Opposition motion does. It suggests exactly where we should be going.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw), with all his experience, clearly spelt out the difference between control orders and TPIMs—essentially, the introduction of an arbitrary time limit and the removal of the relocation element. Under the TPIM system that the Government have put in place, they have already lost two individuals who were subject to such measures so, in that respect, there have been failures in the regime. There are still questions about what happened with those two individuals and they have not all been satisfactorily answered.

One advantage of speaking towards the end of the debate is that one has the benefit of listening to the wisdom of all Members, which is significant in this case, but I still do not understand why exactly the individuals who are currently on TPIMs will go off them next month and how that is a secure process. When pressed, the Home Secretary did not give full assurances. She suggested that she felt comfortable with the process, but I do not think that those assurances were strong enough for this House or, more importantly, citizens outside it.

[Mr Sutcliffe]

The Home Secretary could not even tell us whether the Government were going to take the passports off those individuals and whether they would be free to roam around.

[Nic Dakin]

She was certainly reticent about sharing that information with the House. Interestingly, one individual who absconded did not have a passport but had entered the country with some other identification about which we were not given further details. The plot thickens.

It is clear that nobody wants TPIMs or control orders, and it would be much better to prosecute those involved in terrorism. But we have heard from the Home Secretary and two eminent former Home Secretaries that in a small number of cases evidence is inadmissible because it would compromise security, and that means that alternative measures need to be in place. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson) said, that applies to a very small number of individuals, but they pose a serious danger to the public and the public would expect us to have powers in place to secure our security in regard to those cases. My right hon. Friend said that he knows these cases inside out and expressed concern about the future behaviour of those individuals. Let us hope that his concerns are ill founded and that the Home Secretary’s assurances are well founded. If the opposite is true, we will all pay the price, which none of us wants.

Those currently subject to a TPIM notice are accused of terrorist activities, which David Anderson QC describes as

“at the highest end of seriousness, even by standards of international terrorism.”

These are very serious cases. They are not trivial. These individuals are not members of organisations like the scouts. They are people who are involved in activities of serious concern. The evidence is there.

Pub Companies

Debate between Gerry Sutcliffe and Nicholas Dakin

Wednesday 9th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Gerry Sutcliffe (Bradford South) (Lab)]

I am delighted to be taking part in this important debate. The beer and pub industries are an integral part of the DNA of the country and our heritage past and future, and pubs and clubs are part of our history. Personally, I see myself as more a practitioner than a theorist in these matters: I made my first visit to a pub at the age of 14, and as I approach my 60th birthday, I think that I have a wealth of experience on pub-related issues.

I must caution the hon. Member for Burton (Andrew Griffiths), the chair of the all-party parliamentary beer group, against being too partisan. I believe that both the Secretary of State and my hon. Friend the Member for Chesterfield (Toby Perkins) have set out fairly the history relating to the difficult problem of pub companies, which has been caused by only a small number of them.

There are many reasons for the closure of pubs over a number of years and, in particular, during the last few years. It has been largely due to the change in drinking habits and, indeed, the role of the supermarkets. We have yet to deal with the problem of the availability of cheap supermarket booze, which the last Government did not manage to sort out. People pre-load and then end up at the pub, causing problems. When pubs and clubs remove those people, they may be faced with a bill from the police, and may also find themselves with a reputation for inappropriateness that is, in fact, unfounded.

Let me return to the subject of the pubcos. On Monday I received an e-mail from a constituent, who wrote:

“I'm planting a seed of real concern re the future of the George & Dragon as a pub in Great Horton.”

Great Horton is in my constituency.

“The decision by Enterprise Inns to sell was announced over Christmas. The current licensees, who’ve been there over 25 years, are leaving end of January. It’s a grade 2 listed building. I read that Enterprise are in the process of reducing their number of pubs from 6,000 down to 5,200 over the next 3 years. Is there anything that can be done to keep this pub open, such an invaluable part of the fabric of life in Great Horton? I have been a resident of Great Horton for the past 30 years and a regular customer at the pub.”

That is the real issue that we need to address. Pubs are continuing to close, and the pubcos will use the cover of time scales, consultations and the outcome of those consultations, which may require further action. Perhaps the Minister will be able to tell us whether primary or secondary legislation will be needed. It is important for us to know what process will be required for the introduction of a code of practice. Time is of the essence if we are to resolve this matter.

[Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)]

My hon. Friend is setting out the issues very clearly. There are 63 pubs in the towns and villages of my constituency, and I am keen to keep them there. Does he think that the action proposed by both Front Benches will be strong enough to prevent further closures?

[Mr Sutcliffe]

I hope so. As has already been said, pubs close for more than one reason, but I am hopeful that the united approach that Members have taken today, and the pace at which the Secretary of State wishes to operate, will send the pub companies the clear message that we are watching what is going on and will take a dim view of any tactics that expedite matters before we can bring about the resolution that we want.

When I was the licensing Minister, I worked on Cabinet Sub-Committees with my right hon. Friend the Member for Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey) in trying to find ways of stopping pub closures and—through planning legislation, for instance—supporting community pubs, particularly those in rural areas, because they were hubs that people needed for social activities. We must to try to retain as many pubs as possible, but there are difficulties involved. I met many tenants who had been abused by pub companies—that is the only way in which to describe it—and left debt-ridden by their excesses. If we can introduce fair rents, fair operations and free, without-tie opportunities, we shall be taking an important step forward.

There are many successful pub company models: we need only look at Wetherspoon and Brewers Fayre. We must deal with the issue of binge drinking, but I believe that that is linked to pre-loading and supermarkets. There are responsible licensees and responsible brewing pub companies that operate ties properly. Such companies are many and varied in Yorkshire, Theakston being an obvious example. There are micro-breweries such as Saltaire and Salamander, in my constituency, which offer a wide choice of market opportunities.

Urgency is the order of the day if the Department is to make progress. It is right that there should be consultation, but, as a former Minister, I know that time scales can slip, and that officials and others can come up with barriers and ways of halting the progress that politicians want to make. I hope that that will not happen in this case. I believe that the work of the Select Committees, the all-party beer group and the Save the Pub campaign has brought us where we are today, and that today is a day for rejoicing. However, there is still a job to be done, and I hope that we can do it together as quickly as possible.