25 Years of Devolution in Wales

Debate between Gerald Jones and Rob Roberts

Tuesday 28th March 2023 Westminster Hall

[Gerald Jones (Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Christopher. I congratulate the hon. Member for Delyn (Rob Roberts) on securing the debate, and I associate myself with his condolences to First Minister Mark Drakeford and his family.

It is a shame that the hon. Member has used the debate as an opportunity to talk down devolution. It seems he has done so to score political points, which is such a shame. His view is also at odds with the views of the vast majority of the people of Wales. A large number of surveys on devolution have consistently confirmed that people across Wales support devolution and, in some cases, the devolution of further powers. Those who support rolling back devolution or, at the other extreme, independence, are very much polarised on the margins. The vast majority of people are supportive; they can see the benefits and the evidence of what devolution has delivered for Wales under the stewardship of Welsh Labour.

The Labour party is the party of devolution. The UK Tory Government have no respect for devolution or devolved Government, and have taken every opportunity to undermine the devolution settlement. Devolution is one of the proudest achievements of the last Labour Government. Unlike the Tories, a UK Labour Government would respect devolution and the Sewel convention. In a report by the commission on the UK’s future, led by the former Prime Minister Gordon Brown, Labour proposes ways of modernising and updating our constitutional arrangements, improving the process of intergovernmental relations and putting more power in people’s hands. The Tories have overridden the Sewel convention on several occasions in recent years, disrespecting the devolution settlement.

Tory attacks on Wales and on Welsh Labour are born from desperation. They are fiddling while Rome burns in order to deflect attention from the shambles at Westminster, their failure to tackle the cost of living crisis effectively and their mismanagement of the economy. Historic underfunding of Wales has torn billions of pounds out of the Welsh budget, while the Tory-made economic crisis has only brought greater costs.

The spring Budget makes no provision for public sector pay and includes no funding for health or social care. The Budget was the Tories’ chance to use their financial levers and capacity to provide comprehensive and meaningful support, as well as to invest in public services, public sector pay and economic growth.

[Rob Roberts]

I thank the shadow Minister for proving my point succinctly: we have already had 25 years of saying that everything in Wales is London’s fault, so can we not have another 25 minutes saying it is all Westminster’s fault and instead address some of the points of the debate? What are the Welsh Government doing? How is devolution working? What are the outcomes for people in Wales and how are they making our lives better? It is not working.

--- Later in debate ---

[Gerald Jones]

Yet again the Conservatives have fallen woefully short, failing the people of Wales. We know the Tories promised Wales would not be a penny worse off, with EU regeneration funds replaced in full, but that is far from the case, with huge uncertainty over the shared prosperity fund leaving Wales worse off, while the scandal of levelling up for Wales has meant a Tory smash-and-grab, wrapped up in a sustained attack on devolution, instead of collaborative work with the Welsh Government and local authorities in Wales.

In his opening speech, the hon. Member focused on health, so let me inform him about some of the things the Welsh Government are doing across Wales and the difference a Labour Welsh Government have made. They will always invest to protect health and social care. We spend 14% more per person on health and social care in Wales than in England. While 13 years of Tory Government have been ruining and running our public services into the ground, we have been taking difficult decisions to provide a higher level of NHS funding per head in Wales, where we know the population is older, sicker and less well off.

The NHS is facing similar challenges across the UK, yet performance at major accident and emergency departments has been better in Wales than in England for the last five months. Waiting lists are growing faster in England than in Wales. In the six months to December 2022, waiting lists increased 0.4% in Wales and by 6% in England.

[Rob Roberts]

On that point, will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Gerald Jones]

I think the hon. Gentleman has said quite enough for now. In the last 12 months, waiting lists have increased by 7% in Wales and by 19% in England.

With the industrial action taking place, Welsh Labour Ministers have got around the table with trade unions, taking tough decisions to find whatever resources they can to negotiate a resolution to the current pay dispute. There is not enough money in the budget for a fully consolidated pay offer, but the Tories have not provided an adequate level of funding for years.

Welsh Labour is training more doctors and nurses year on year. As my hon. Friend the Member for Llanelli (Dame Nia Griffith) said, Welsh Labour has implemented the real living wage for social care workers, and has ensured that prescriptions and hospital parking are free, and care charges capped. Prescriptions are free in Wales, but people in England are being forced to go without medication they desperately need because they can no longer afford it. The NHS bursary was axed in England in 2016, but has been protected in Wales because of Labour’s values. In England, the 40% drop in student nurse applications over subsequent years has been widely attributed to the axing of the bursary.

In transport, despite having 5% of the UK population, 11% of track miles and 20% of level crossings, Wales receives only between 1% and 2% of rail enhancement funding. That is not a fair funding settlement.

The reality is that only Labour will devolve economic power and control out of Westminster. The next Labour Government will return power over its economic destiny to Wales, and the decision-making role for the Welsh Government on structural funds will be restored.

There is a number of examples of businesses in Wales receiving more support during the recent pandemic. Vaccination rates were higher, and delivery in Wales was consistently faster than in England. PPE procurement was transparent and cost-effective, in stark contrast to the experience at Westminster under the Tories. Welsh Labour’s trusted decision making protected lives and livelihoods, which was without doubt reflected in Welsh Labour’s historic 2021 Senedd election victory.

To work even more effectively, devolution needs a strong partnership between the Welsh Government and a United Kingdom Labour Government, working together to deliver the priorities of the people of Wales and ensuring that Wales has a strong part to play in a strong United Kingdom. I hope we will not have too long to wait for that, depending on when the Prime Minister calls the next general election.