Oral Answers to Questions
Debate between Gerald Howarth and Maria Miller(11 years, 1 month ago)
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Maria Miller
We have had a great deal of debate on the self-regulation of the press, through the Leveson inquiry and through the 11 subsequent debates in this House and the other place. The important thing is that we make this work for the industry and for people who are seeking redress.
Sir Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con)
I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, the Prime Minister and all those involved in the difficult business of striking the right balance. Given the overwhelming public support for a system of independent regulation, does my right hon. Friend agree that the editors and press barons should now recognise that the will of Parliament has been declared, and that they should support the people, come to terms with this measure and negotiate with her?
Maria Miller
I thank my hon. Friend for his comments. I would add that the public overwhelmingly support a free press, so it is important that we strike the right balance. I am sure that everyone here today would agree that the new system has to have a free press at its heart, while giving individuals the right level of redress, as I believe it will.
Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill
Debate between Gerald Howarth and Maria Miller
Maria Miller
The title of this Bill might be “Marriage”, but its fabric is about freedom and respect: freedom to marry regardless of sexuality or gender, but also freedom to believe that marriage should be of one man with one woman and not be marginalised. It provides clear affirmation that as a nation, respect for each and every person is paramount, regardless of age, religion, gender, ethnicity or sexuality.
Throughout this Bill we have listened closely to the issues raised with us, and I particularly thank the Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport, my right hon. Friend the Member for Faversham and Mid Kent (Hugh Robertson), and the Under-Secretary of State for Women and Equalities, my hon. Friend the Member for Maidstone and The Weald (Mrs Grant), for the impressive way that they handled this Bill in Committee. The issues raised in Committee have been looked at thoroughly, and these further amendments will improve the Bill and strengthen its effectiveness. I also thank the right hon. Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper) and the hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green) for their constructive and considerate contributions.
Lords amendments 1 and 2 clarify the meaning of “compelled” in clause 2, which provides important protections to ensure that religious organisations and their representatives cannot be compelled to opt in to, or conduct marriages between same-sex couples.
Maria Miller
If my hon. Friend will give me a moment to make a little more progress, then of course I will give way.
The amendments were tabled in response to questions asked in this House by my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, Southgate (Mr Burrowes) and those in the other place who were concerned that the protection from compulsion set out in clause 2 might be too narrow because the meaning of “compulsion” was not clear. We concluded that we could clarify the meaning of the word “compelled” in this context and make sure that in doing so we were not doing harm elsewhere. The sensible clarification that “compelled” means “compelled by any means” put the question beyond doubt, and it was warmly welcomed in the other place.
Sir Gerald Howarth
I am most grateful to the Minister for giving way. Perhaps she might add to her list of tributes my hon. Friends the Members for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton) and for Enfield, Southgate (Mr Burrowes) and the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) so that it does not just include Opposition Members who support her Bill but colleagues who have done considerable work in scrutinising it.
Maria Miller
I thank my hon. Friend for making sure that we pay tribute to those on both sides of the debate, whether it be my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, Southgate or my hon. Friend the Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton). They have all played their part in making sure that we will have a strong piece of legislation that protects people who have deeply held religious beliefs and those who believe that it is absolutely right and fair that marriage should be open to same-sex couples.
The guiding principle of this Bill, from the start, has been the protection and promotion of religious freedoms, so we have made a number of other amendments to ensure that the religious protections that it contains are as strong, clear and effective as they can be. They include amendment 3 on the Jewish governing authorities, amendments 38, 39, 40, 48, 49 and 52 on void marriages, and amendment 51 on a change of personnel within a governing authority.
Some people are concerned about the effect of the Bill on the broader issue of freedom to express the belief that marriage should be only between a man and a woman—in particular, in relation to employment and schools. We want to ensure that that freedom of expression is protected, as, I am sure, would my hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Sir Gerald Howarth). That has guided our thinking throughout the passage of the Bill. We have listened to these arguments and acted. Our amendment to the Public Order Act 1986, amendment 53, puts it beyond doubt that the discussion or criticism of marriage regarding the sex of the parties to it shall not be taken, of itself, to be threatening or intended to stir up hatred on the grounds of sexual orientation. The belief that marriage should be of one man with one woman is, of course, mainstream, legitimate and lawful, and it is explicitly recognised as such by the religious protections contained in the Bill. Whatever one’s view about the marriage of same-sex couples, it is legitimate and the Government will protect the right to express it. I hope that that provides the reassurance that several right hon. and hon. Members on both sides of the House have been looking for.
Extending marriage to same-sex couples changes nothing in respect of freedom of speech. That is why, in relation to other questions about the operation of the Equality Act 2010, particularly on the position of employees and teachers, we are clear that further changes to the law are not necessary and could indeed be harmful in casting doubt where none currently exists. For this reason, we believe that the best way to deliver clarity is through guidance to deal with the particular concerns that have been expressed, not by making specific provision in the law. We will therefore work with the Equality and Human Rights Commission to ensure that guidance will be available on how the Equality Act should be interpreted in the light of this Bill.
I am aware that there is considerable anxiety on the issue of teachers. I would like further to reassure hon. Members that, in the unlikely event that unforeseen consequences materialised, the Bill already contains ample powers to take action, particularly in paragraph 27 of schedule 4. These powers make it possible to disapply or modify, should circumstances require it, the default approach provided in clause 11 and schedule 3 whereby marriage has the same effect in law for same-sex couples as for opposite-sex couples.
Maria Miller
I think that we should turn the House’s attention to amendments 41 to 44 before we become more sidetracked.
The Bill introduces an important advance for trans people who wish for their marriages to continue after seeking gender recognition. We have made a number of amendments to achieve that. First, Lords amendments 41 and 44 introduce a fast-track procedure for those who transitioned a long time ago, but who have not sought legal gender change, so that they can remain in their marriage. Secondly, Lords amendments 42 and 43 make it clear that the consent of a trans person’s spouse is simply consent to staying married after the trans person’s gender recognition; it is not consent to their gender recognition and is therefore not a veto to it.
There are two further issues on which the Government have recognised the strength of feeling here and in the other place, and on which we have undertaken to establish a proper evidence base. Lords amendments 10, 15, 26 and 54 provide for a statutory consultation on whether marriage law in England and Wales should be changed to enable belief organisations to conduct legally valid marriages. That was not part of the original policy intent of the Bill and careful consideration is required before any legislative action can be taken, including a full public consultation. It is entirely sensible that that should now be done.
Those amendments are the fruits of a great cross-party effort to achieve an agreed position and to provide a sensible and considered way forward. I would like to take this opportunity to thank my noble Friend, Baroness Stowell and the noble Lord Wallace of Tankerness for the careful and considered way in which they presented the Bill in the other place. By working with Opposition Front Benchers, we have achieved considerable progress in this area.
Sir Gerald Howarth
My right hon. Friend mentions Baroness Stowell, who said in another place that
“marriage does not require the fidelity of couples. It is open to each couple to decide for themselves on the importance of fidelity within their own relationship.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 19 June 2013; Vol. 746, c. 379.]
I find it absolutely astonishing and unbelievable that a Conservative Government Minister should be uttering that. Does my right hon. Friend agree? Is that the Government’s view of marriage?
Sir Gerald Howarth
I thank my hon. Friend for raising that issue. It is interesting that surgeons are not required to perform abortions. What sort of tolerance is it—I am looking at my parliamentary neighbour, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State—for this Bill to impose on registrars who may have served for 25 years that their conscience will not be allowed to be spared and they will have to do as it requires or surrender their jobs? This is not the tolerance that the Conservative party should be espousing in our country. If there are provisions whereby atheists do not have to teach religion in schools and surgeons do not have to perform abortions if it is against their conscience, why was the amendment in the other place, which was argued for by so many noble Lords and Ladies, rejected?
Maria Miller
I apologise for interrupting my hon. Friend’s speech, but it is important that the House is aware that registrars do not wish to have any sort of provision. They perform a public function and they believe it is very important that they do so without any sort of dispensation. [Interruption.]
Sir Gerald Howarth
My hon. Friend the Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton) tells me that there is no representative body for registrars and so they were not able to give a corporate view. However, there are registrars who do not wish to—[Interruption.] Apparently I am going to be shouted down. If I go out on to the streets, what will happen? Will Labour Members uphold my right to freedom of expression or join in the shouting?
I understand that a van drove around yesterday proclaiming the case of those of us who oppose the Bill. It had a picture on it of two men and a little girl under the caption, “What about Sophie?”, but the driver received such abuse that the company stopped the van going around the square. I say to those Opposition Members who are keen to champion freedom of expression and to stand up for minorities that they should stand up for the majority who feel that they are being intimidated.
That brings me neatly to the question: what about children? Neither my right hon. Friend the Minister nor the Opposition spokeswoman, the right hon. Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper), has mentioned children. I want to celebrate marriage. Marriage between a man and a woman leads, generally speaking, to children, but marriage between two men or two women will not lead to the production of children. This is a very serious matter. Therefore, on the question of freedom of expression, I hope that those of us who proclaim that view will not be shouted down or denied our view.
Others wish to speak so I shall conclude by saying that I believe that, ideally, children need a mother and a father—that is what all the evidence shows—and preferably a mother and father in a marriage. I am utterly, completely, irredeemably opposed to this Bill and this is my last chance to speak against it before it is enacted. I believe it will lead to serious unintended consequences and that it debases traditional marriage. I will conclude with the words of a former Deputy Speaker of this House who is better known to us as Sir Michael Lord, but who now rejoices in the title of Lord Framlingham:
“This Bill is built entirely on pretence. It pretends that there is no difference between a man and a woman.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 15 July 2013; Vol. 747, c. 544.]
That is a formidable basis upon which to build legislation that affects all our people in this land.
Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill
Debate between Gerald Howarth and Maria Miller
Maria Miller
What I can be absolutely clear about is that I am committed to undertaking an urgent review, and that the review will come through promptly, and in the way that my hon. Friend would expect. The Bill is due in the House of Lords in two weeks. It would not be feasible—no Member of the House would expect it—for me to undertake a proper consultation in that time frame, but I undertake further to discuss the timetable for the review with my hon. Friend, and it will absolutely go forward in a prompt fashion. That is what he would expect us to say.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Arundel and South Downs (Nick Herbert) made an impassioned speech. He properly talked about the importance of getting the right solutions for cohabiting couples, and the extension of civil partnerships may or may not be that right solution. We need to do the right policy work to ensure that we take these decisions for the right reasons, and in the right way.
The right hon. Member for St Helens South and Whiston (Mr Woodward) put his finger on it when he said that the gross unfairness is the fact that same-sex couples cannot get married. That is what the House needs to focus on today. By voting for new clause 16 and amendment (a) to it, we can get to a position in which we can deal with the issue of extending civil partnerships to heterosexual couples without it getting in the way of making sure that the unfairness that he rightly identifies is dealt with swiftly. He talked eloquently about the inequities in pension provision. If that was a simple issue to rectify, presumably his Government would have addressed the issue back in 2004.
The hon. Member for Glasgow South (Mr Harris) talked about same-sex marriage being a step too far in 2004. I was not a Member of the House at that point, but I understand the sentiment behind his comments. I can say to the House today that this is not a step too far. It is not something that we should shy away from. We have to be clear in our commitment to focusing on extending marriage to same-sex couples, and should not be distracted by trying to incorporate into the Bill, at this point in time, issues that would create further delay and debate in the other place.
Sir Gerald Howarth
Will my right hon. Friend provide the House with her assessment of the fundamental difference between a civil partnership and same-sex marriage, save the marriage bit?
Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill
Debate between Gerald Howarth and Maria Miller(11 years, 10 months ago)
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Sir Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con)
My right hon. Friend failed to answer the question put by the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds). Can she tell the House, and the people of this country, where she has a mandate to inflict this massive social and cultural change? It was not in our party’s manifesto, and the Prime Minister told Adam Boulton on Sky that he had no plans to introduce it. There are many major issues with which the country needs to deal. This is an irrelevance, and it should not be pursued through the House, least of all with a three-line Whip on a programme motion that gives us no real opportunity to debate it.
Maria Miller
My fellow Hampshire Member and I know that we disagree on this matter, but we do so in a very fair and even-handed manner, and I want to ensure that that fairness and even-handedness are present in all aspects of the Government’s policy. I think that there is an extremely strong argument for the Bill to be passed, and I am presenting it today. The purpose of parliamentary debates is to discuss such matters in more detail.
Equal Marriage Consultation
Debate between Gerald Howarth and Maria Miller
Maria Miller
The spirit of our debate today has been one of trying to find a way to ensure that we can provide protection for religious belief. I urge the hon. Lady to think about that carefully, because in the context of the provision of our quadruple lock it is important that we provide for that change in the Equality Act if we are to give the certainty that, as other hon. Members have highlighted, is so important.
Sir Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con)
Will my right hon. Friend accept that the great majority of people in this country—62% according to ComRes—regard marriage as being between a man and a woman, a situation that has persisted for centuries; that neither she nor the Prime Minister, and neither the Deputy Prime Minister nor the Leader of the Opposition, has any mandate whatsoever to inflict this massive social and cultural change on our country; that the consultation exercise has been a complete sham; and that the Government had made up their mind in advance what outcome they wanted and failed to take into account the 600,000 people who signed the Coalition for Marriage petition?
Maria Miller
I hope I can reassure my hon. Friend and neighbour in Hampshire that we have absolutely looked not only at the consultation responses but at the petitions we have been given, although they are not part of the consultation response because they were not part of the consultation. It is important that we consider both sides of the debate, understand the strength of feeling and make provisions for people’s religious beliefs. I do not ever want to try to trade statistics in this place, because the subject we are dealing with is even more important than that. It concerns respect for people’s differences, and we have an obligation to ensure that those differences can be protected in law.
Leveson Inquiry
Debate between Gerald Howarth and Maria Miller(12 years ago)
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Maria Miller
I can be crystal clear, as indeed was the Prime Minister last week: yes, we will take action along the lines set out in the Leveson report if action is not taken to put together a self-regulatory approach, and that, as the right hon. Gentleman knows, would include legislation.
Sir Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con)
My right hon. Friend has said that the Government accept Leveson’s proposals and that, in the event that there is not a satisfactory regime, the suggestion of my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kensington (Sir Malcolm Rifkind) would be taken up. However, I remind her that Leveson states in paragraph 76 of the executive summary that he also wants to see a “statutory verification process”. It would be a statutory verification process, not a shackling of the press. Is that part of the Government’s current proposals, because we know that self-regulation has been an abject failure for 70 years?
Maria Miller
I will answer that point very briefly, although I am sure that it will be subject to much debate later, but then I really must make some progress. There are two aspects of statutory regulation within Lord Justice Leveson’s proposals: one is verification and the other is how we can put in place incentives for membership. I say simply to my hon. Friend—I know that he understands my point because we have had conversations about this before—that we take a very principled approach to this and have grave concern about the use of statutory legislation to underpin the recommendations. We do not believe that it is necessary. We believe that we should be looking at potential alternatives. Indeed, that is what we are discussing in cross-party talks today.