European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill

George Kerevan Excerpts

Tuesday 31st January 2017 Commons Chamber

[Stuart Andrew (Pudsey) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen), particularly because his constituency is my home island, and I value his contribution. My remarks will be brief. Like most Members, I supported the idea of having a referendum. I felt that it was right for the British people to decide our future relationship with the EU. We have all heard the many contrary views about whether we should remain part of the EU, so it would have been wholly wrong for just this House to make that decision—it was right that the view of the British people was taken.

I voted to leave because the approach of the EU, as I think I heard the hon. Gentleman say a moment ago, is somewhat arrogant. Our former Prime Minister travelled the breadth of the EU trying to get a deal, and the fact that the member states did not listen was a great disappointment and shows a little arrogance, which added to the frustration felt by many British people. The hon. Member for Walsall North (Mr Winnick) talked about the free movement of people, and he is right that the result might have been different had the EU listened to people’s deep concerns about free movement and made some alterations.

I agreed with what my hon. Friend the Member for Devizes (Claire Perry) said about the campaign. I was uncomfortable with some of the campaigning by both sides—it was not necessarily our finest hour—but I have been really frustrated by some of the post-referendum comments. Some people claim that those who voted to leave did not know what they were voting for, but that shows complete arrogance and a real misunderstanding of people’s concerns and frustrations. The people who have really angered me are those who say that some people who voted to leave did so out of prejudice or racism. That is frankly disgraceful. I have spent most of my time in Parliament fighting prejudice and racism, and I am not one to vote just because of them. I voted as I did because I believe that our destiny will be better if we make our own decisions. However, it is also possible to have real concerns about immigration and not be a racist. It really annoys me that some think that if a person wants to limit the number of people coming here, they are somehow prejudiced. No, it is about being pragmatic and sensible so that our communities can cope with the numbers of people who live in our area.

When it comes to trust in politics, we have to listen to our constituents—to the people of this country. When I voted for the referendum I knew full well that the result would be what the majority of the people of the whole United Kingdom decided, so I will be representing the views of the British people. I will also represent those in my constituency who did not want us to leave by ensuring that I regularly write to the Department, and I am grateful to the Department for its answers.

[George Kerevan (East Lothian) (SNP)]

The hon. Gentleman talks, as others have, about the verdict of the British people, but the citizens of this community are fractured, with the majority of people in Scotland wanting a different outcome. How will the Government cope with that in the negotiations?

[Stuart Andrew]

As I said, it was a vote of the whole United Kingdom. I hear a lot from SNP Members about the people who voted to remain, but I never hear them stand up for those in Scotland who voted to leave.

The hon. Member for Ynys Môn talked about the referendum in Wales, in which I campaigned heavily for a no vote. I lost that campaign, but I completely respected the view of the people of Wales and accepted the result. That is what we should be doing today.

Our Prime Minister has set out an ambitious and exciting future for this country. Her 12-point plan has gone down incredibly well with many of my constituents. We are not little Englanders; we are now big Britainers. We are looking for the great opportunities that we have all over the world.

The one area about which I still have concerns is EU nationals living in this country. I appreciate what the Government are saying, and I am grateful that they have offered to protect the rights of EU nationals here, but it is incredibly important that we do that very quickly.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Ranil Jayawardena (North East Hampshire) (Con)]

I am pleased to follow the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Wayne David), whom I commend for saying that we should accept and respect the result because we live in a democracy. I shall return to that important principle later in my speech. More importantly, however, he said that morally the result is binding, regardless of what legislation has said or, indeed, what has been said in this House.

My hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew) also made the good point that there are many complications, both personal and for the country at large, in the route ahead, so we must be careful in the steps we take along the road. Nevertheless, along that road we must travel, so I congratulate the Government on introducing the Bill, which is clear, concise and consistent with the result returned by the British people in the referendum.

I welcome and respect the Supreme Court judgment that led us to this debate. Under our current constitutional settlement, if the Supreme Court decides a matter of constitutional law, it is right that we abide by that decision. That is the rule of law. That is what many people fought for in the referendum: British judges in British courts deciding British law. For that reason, I am pleased that we are here, respecting the rule of law.

I am also pleased that we are able to recognise, through the Supreme Court judgment, that this matter is a United Kingdom competence because it was a United Kingdom referendum. Yes, there were different views in various districts, counties, regions and nations of the United Kingdom, but no single building block of the United Kingdom has a veto. We are one nation and we should respect the result of the country as a whole.

[George Kerevan]

At this point, no one is challenging the result. No one on my side is asking for a veto. We are asking, because two of the constituent nations of the United Kingdom voted a different way, whether the Government will give assurances that those nations will have a special role in the negotiations.

[Mr Jayawardena]

It seems to me that the Scottish National party not only does not like referendums—perhaps because it has lost two of them in quick succession—but is not paying any attention to the Government’s extensive work in consulting and working with the devolved Administrations across these islands. I come back to the central point that we are one nation. This is a United Kingdom, and it remains a fact that the people of Scotland voted for that, much to the SNP’s dismay. For that reason, I back the United Kingdom taking this decision.

On the matter of who voted for what, I want to put on record an important point that is perhaps lost in the minutiae of the various points and facts that are bandied around. Other than in Northern Ireland, we do not know how any constituency in this country voted.

[George Kerevan]

indicated dissent.

[Mr Jayawardena]

The hon. Gentleman suggests that every single result has been published, but he will know that actually it was the results for council districts that have been published. In my neck of the woods, I know that the whole of Hampshire and the Isle of Wight voted for leave. I also know that Hart voted for remain but Basingstoke and Deane voted for leave. It is important that we recognise that as a principle, because it reaffirms my point that this is one nation and that, together as a whole, throughout the country, we voted to leave.

--- Later in debate ---

[Alex Chalk (Cheltenham) (Con)]

It is a great privilege to follow the right hon. Member for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw), who argued his case with his characteristic clarity and eloquence. I campaigned for the UK to remain in the EU and I do not resile from a single argument I made in favour of that position—I happen to think I was right—but I recognise that I lost the argument. I did not agree with the referendum result, but I respect it. I am absolutely clear that democracy demands that we vote to trigger article 50 and that to do otherwise would be democratically unsustainable. Let me take a few moments to explain why.

The first point to make is that our relationship with the EU had to be resolved. Wherever one stands on the question of whether we should have been closer to or further away from the EU, the reality is that the UK’s relationship with it lacked democratic legitimacy. The boil had to be lanced; the referendum had to take place. Some say that we should have not let the people have their say. My right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke), whose speech was a masterclass that I was privileged to witness, set out his view that this is not a matter that the people should decide. That might have been right in 1970, 1980 or 1990, but the culture of our country has moved to the point—whether we call it the collapse of the deference culture or something else—where a decision of this House on something of such enormous constitutional significance would not have the currency that the British people required. It had to be them who made the decision.

I stood on a manifesto that promised to offer the British people the referendum and to honour its result. The manifesto clearly stated:

“We will honour the result of the referendum, whatever the outcome.”

To betray that would be unconscionable. If that were not clear enough, on Second Reading of the Bill that became the European Union Referendum Act 2015, the then Foreign Secretary said that that Bill

“has one clear purpose: to deliver on our promise to give the British people the final say on our EU membership in an in/out referendum”—[Official Report, 9 June 2015; Vol. 596, c. 1047.]

How can anyone in this House who voted in favour of that somehow ignore the position now? How is that democratically sustainable? I say that as somebody who did not welcome the result, but I have to accept it.

During the campaign, I do not recall that it was ever suggested by anyone on either side of the debate that somehow the vote would or could be ignored. Everyone understood the vote’s significance, and not a single person I spoke to suggested that the result might not be respected. If there were any doubt about that, should we not reflect on the 72.2% turnout? The reason why the turnout was so great was because the British people recognised that they were being asked not for their advice, but for their instructions.

[George Kerevan]

Does not the hon. Gentleman accept that there is a difference between voting to come out of the EU and coming out of the single market? Opposition Members are trying to argue that the Government are rushing to judgment on the single market.

[Alex Chalk]

I make two points in response to the hon. Gentleman. First, I am concerned that those who fasten on the point about the single market are using it as a fig leaf—an excuse to try to avoid the referendum result. Secondly, I am perfectly clear that I would have preferred to stay in the single market, but it has become tolerably plain over the past six months that that was never a credible option, because the four freedoms that the EU holds so dear—goods, services, labour and capital—are perceived to be utterly inviolable. There was never any flexibility on offer.

My personal view is that it would have been in the interest of the European Union to offer some flex in respect of the free movement of labour. Had that been offered to the former Prime Minister, we might have remained in. Indeed, had it been offered to our current Prime Minister, we might have remained in the single market, but that has never been on offer. Edmund Burke said:

“A state without the means of some change is without the means of its own conservation.”

The EU may, in due course, come to rue the decision not to offer some flexibility.

--- Later in debate ---

[George Kerevan (East Lothian) (SNP)]

I have learned something today: I can sit through an entire 11 hours of debate and actually enjoy it. There have been some wonderful speeches, and I have learned a lot. I was particularly taken by the speech made by the hon. Member for North East Somerset (Mr Rees-Mogg), my friend from the Treasury Committee. I thank Members on the Government Benches for staying until the end of this very long debate; I just wish that there had been more interest from other quarters in what is the most important debate that we are going to have.

I want to address two charges levelled at my party. The first is that in some way we are trying to thwart the will of the electorate. I recognise that on 23 June the people of England voted to leave the European Union. They want to leave, so the UK will leave; that is a done deal and we cannot thwart that. In fact, I will go as far as to say what the hon. Member for North East Somerset encapsulated: the English nation was reborn on 23 June. There is a new polity here.

What is important for my party is how we reconfigure the relationship between the different nations of the United Kingdom. As the hon. Member for North East Somerset will know perfectly well, the British constitution has always been flexible—that is its strength. When Scotland joined the Union in 1707, we kept our own legal and educational systems. All we are asking now, in the Brexit era, is that we get a similar bespoke deal. We want to stay within the single market. We could probably not stay within the customs union—fair enough.

My real point, and the reason why we will be voting against article 50 tomorrow, is that there has not been enough discussion between the Government and the devolved Parliament on whether there can be a bespoke deal for Scotland. Government Members say that that is not possible, but let us discuss it before we trigger article 50.

The hon. Member for Bedford (Richard Fuller) made an interesting and reasonable point, saying that we have to move quickly to invoke article 50 because if we do not, there will be a period of uncertainty before we get around to finishing the negotiations, and that will harm business confidence. Our argument against that is that if we give the Prime Minister the right to trigger article 50 in March, a two-year clock will start ticking. At the end of that two years, all that will be left if we cannot get a deal will be the World Trade Organisation rules, which are no way as usable as the hon. Member for Bedford thinks. Ultimately, there is no deal on tariff allocation and no sensible dispute resolution system, so the WTO rules would be dangerous.

The other charge is that we are arguing this as a subterfuge so that we can have a second Scottish independence referendum. Hon. Members have dealt with us in all-party parliamentary groups and in Committees. Forget the banter of this Chamber; we are serious people. We are offering a bespoke deal whereby Scotland will stay within the United Kingdom if we can stay within the single market. Put us to the test. If hon. Members think we are bluffing, call our bluff. The onus is now on you. Give us a bespoke deal and we can live within the UK in the single market.