National Health Service

Debate between George Howarth and Simon Burns

Monday 16th July 2012 Commons Chamber

[The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr Simon Burns)]

The motion that we are debating today is typical of the Opposition. Rather than praising the NHS in a year of change, they seek to denigrate it. Rather than commending the hard work and dedication of NHS staff, they undermine their efforts and belittle their results. Rather than supporting the parts of the NHS that are dealing with long-term financial challenges—challenges that were partly of the own making of the right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham)—they attempt to scaremonger.

In truth, this has been a year that has tested the NHS, which has dealt with significant financial pressures as well as the transition to the new system, but it is also a year in which the NHS has proven its mettle. Far from the meltdown that some gleefully predicted, we have seen a robust and resilient NHS delivering better care for patients.

[Mr George Howarth]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Burns]

In a minute.

I know that waiting times mean a great deal to the right hon. Member for Leigh, so let us have a look at the numbers. Despite what he peddles around the country, waiting times remain low and stable—in fact, below where they were at the last general election. In May 2010 more than 18,000 people waited more than a year for treatment. Today that figure is just 4,317. Today 55,335 people wait more than six months for treatment—almost half the figure of 100,979 at the last general election. There are 149,912 people now waiting more than 18 weeks, compared with 209,411 in May 2010. The median wait for admitted patients has fallen in that time from 8.4 weeks to 8 weeks, and for non-admitted patients from 4.3 weeks to 4 weeks. Across the country, all NHS waiting time standards for diagnostic tests and cancer treatment have been met.

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[Mr Burns]

Yes; 96% of patients wait for fewer than four hours in A and E, and as the right hon. Gentleman knows, the percentile is 95%.

[Mr George Howarth]

rose—

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Burns]

The hon. Lady will know that GP referrals have gone down slightly, but the referrals to A and E have risen slightly.

[Mr George Howarth]

The Minister said in his opening remarks that Opposition Members are denigrating NHS staff and their achievements. Does he accept that if he has any conversations with NHS staff, he will find the reverse—they feel that they are being denigrated by this Government and their reforms?

[Mr Burns]

I do not like to contradict the right hon. Gentleman, but I will. What I said was slightly different from what he accused me of saying. What I said was that rather than praising the NHS in a year of change, the Opposition denigrate it. That is slightly different.

To pick up on a point that the right hon. Member for Leigh mentioned from a sedentary position, GP referrals for 2011-12 were 1% lower than in the previous year, but outpatient referrals were, as I said, slightly higher.

EU Working Time Directive (NHS)

Debate between George Howarth and Simon Burns

Thursday 26th April 2012 Westminster Hall

[Mr Burns]

I will not, if my hon. Friend will forgive me, simply because I have only seven more minutes. I was hoping to address some of the points raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol North West.

We have to abide by the legalities. Otherwise, chaos will ensue and we will not in the longer term achieve what we are hoping to, even if we might on that narrow issue. Until the negotiations in Europe come to a successful end we are obliged to comply with the European Court of Justice and we cannot unilaterally go against it. The Department of Health and the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills are working very closely together on how the WTD will apply to the UK health care sector. Both Departments agree that we need to keep the opt-out and it would be a grave error to surrender it or to abandon it for other concessions. That is a red line for us. We have to keep the opt-out.

We also want to solve the issue of flexible on-call time and compensatory rest that allows the NHS to work within the current constraints of the working time directive. Those are both very important issues to the Government and to the NHS, but as I said, the bottom line is that the opt-out must stay. European social partners have opened negotiations to amend the WTD. At this stage, as hon. Members will know, it is not national Governments directly who are conducting these negotiations; they are being done through what is known as the social partners. In our case, it is NHS Employers and the Local Government Association with regard to local government and the knock-on effect for social care; that is an important part of the delivery of NHS services and social care.

That process is autonomous, and operates independently of the Commission and Council. The social partners have nine months at most to reach an agreement. That takes us up to September 2012. If an agreement is reached, it would be submitted to the Council for approval. But if an agreement cannot be reached, it will be up to the Commission to issue a proposal to change the directive. The Government have made it patently clear to everyone that long-term, sustainable growth must be the EU’s key priority. Every decision the EU makes must be geared towards that. So we will carry on working with our partners to make sure that EU measures support labour market flexibility and do not impose unfair costs on member states or businesses, or services like the NHS, that could hold back our economy and the delivery of services.

For the NHS specifically we are keen to ensure that an amended directive provides more flexibility, particularly in the areas of on-call time and compensatory rest, provided that a workable opt-out can be maintained. Responding to concerns about how the directive is being applied, particularly with regard to medical training—an issue raised by a number of hon. Members—Medical Education England, the Government’s independent advisory body on medical education, commissioned an independent review chaired by Professor Sir John Temple. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health has asked Medical Education England to help improve our training practices in line with Sir John’s recommendations.

In response, Medical Education England has set up a programme known as Better Training Better Care, which will improve patient care by increasing the presence of consultants and by ensuring that service delivery supports training. It includes two important components: identifying, piloting, evaluating and sharing good education and training practice; and improving the curriculum so that training leads directly to safe, effective patient care. From an education and training perspective, handovers present an excellent opportunity for training. The Better Training Better Care programme includes pilots that will hopefully show how education and training practice can improve in that area and take advantage of those opportunities.

NHS trusts in England have responded very positively to this programme: 96 trusts applied for part of the £1 million available for NHS pilots in 2012-13. Following that competitive process, last month 16 projects with 16 NHS trusts were awarded funding for those pilots. I look forward to seeing what developments they come up with.

As I am running out of time, I say to my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol North West, who wants to make a contribution to end the debate, that I will write to her with answers to a number of important issues that she raised. However, I will deal briefly with two issues now.

First, my hon. Friend asked what will happen in emergency situations such as a flu pandemic. I hope I can give some reassurance on that point. In such circumstances, as long as health and safety are protected in the round and the employer has correctly judged that the circumstances are exceptional, the rest requirements of the directive can be suspended.

Secondly, my hon. Friend the Member for Kingswood and other Members raised the vital issue of locums, including the cost of locums and their number. I share the concern of my hon. Friends about the use of locums. They play an important role when there are short-term staff shortages, or when there is illness or holidays, and there may be a limited impact of the EWTD that means that trusts will be employing locums when they might not otherwise do so. However, the evidence about the extent of that practice is not as extensive and meaningful as we would like it to be; we would like to get a fuller picture. Nevertheless, whatever the reason for the use of locums, we are concerned across the board about their extensive use and the add-on costs that brings to the NHS. That is why we are working through our training programmes and through the Quality, Innovation, Productivity and Prevention programme to seek to minimise unnecessary use of locums and to bring down the number employed, thereby reducing costs. As I said to my hon. Friend the Member for Kingswood, there has been an 11% reduction in the employment of locums, and at the same time there has been an increase in doctors.

In conclusion, I also hope I can give some reassurance to my hon. Friends about staffing levels, particularly in specialised areas, because the situation is slightly more encouraging than they may have feared. For example, if we take the current year and general surgery—

[Mr George Howarth (in the Chair)]

Order. I call Charlotte Leslie.

Private Finance Initiative Hospitals

Debate between George Howarth and Simon Burns

Wednesday 4th May 2011 Westminster Hall

[Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab)]

May I repeat what my hon. Friend the Member for St Helens North (Mr Watts) said about it being a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Meale? I congratulate him on being fortunate enough to secure this debate on a matter that is of great concern to our constituents, and on the manner in which he presented his case.

It is right and proper to begin by repeating something mentioned by my hon. Friend, which is that the hospital staff, whether medical, support or care staff, are highly regarded by the local community. The St Helens and Knowsley primary care trust is highly thought of, and has been prominent in ensuring that we get the health service we deserve. The new hospital facilities at Whiston and St Helens are considered to be at the cutting edge in technology, the use of space and the way that services are conducted, and we appreciate the service that we currently receive. I know from recent personal and family experiences that those who make use of the hospital facilities on both sites have every reason to be grateful that they are available.

The communities served by the two sites have particular, and in some ways difficult, health needs. Some of those health needs are related to former and current occupations, and some to the prevalence of poverty and consequent lifestyle choices. In parts of my constituency, for example, we have abnormally high rates of cancer. That is partly a result of high levels of smoking, but in some cases it is the result of former occupations. My hon. Friend mentioned the mining industry and the legacy left by that in St Helens. Some of the chemical processes that have taken place over the years in and around that area have also taken their toll on people’s health, and we therefore need a very good hospital service. We also need a good primary care trust that can provide a lot of the treatment people need, but hospital services are an important part of that mix.

As my hon. Friend rightly said, the difficulties we seem to have arrived at are due to the deficit carried by the hospital. We could have a long discussion about how that deficit was created, but that would not necessarily be fruitful. The deficit appears to stand in the way of the hospital achieving foundation trust status, and that seems to have been the impetus behind the three options referred to by my hon. Friend and mentioned in the tripartite document of which he has a copy.

I do not for one minute underestimate the seriousness of the deficit. Any responsible Administration or Government should take a deficit of that size seriously, and I understand that is the case. The difficulty arises, however, because the three options under discussion leave people concerned about what might be going on. I will talk about what has and has not been published, because the Minister tried to cast some doubt on that a few moments ago.

[Mr Simon Burns]

On what?

[Mr Howarth]

Had the Minister been listening, he would know that I said that a little later in my speech, I will try to cast some light on what has and has not been published. He cast some doubt on whether there is in fact material that we should have seen but have not, and I will return to that issue in a moment.

My hon. Friend referred to the three options that have been suggested. The document refers to a national solution, and even if it is not spelled out in clear terms, I take that to mean that it is intended—presumably by Department officials—for some means of closing the deficit to be found nationally, in order to get rid of the £20 million deficit that is creating the problem. I am not in a position to say whether that is a likely solution; hopefully, the Minister will be better able to explain that. To me, however, that solution is the most preferable of the three options.

The second option would involve some kind of amalgamation or merger with other existing NHS facilities, although that seems fraught with inevitable difficulties. If an existing facility already carries some sort of deficit, presumably it will not be keen to add to that by amalgamating or merging with another institution that might bring even more of a deficit to the table. Furthermore, I do not see any of the synergy that would need to exist between the St Helens and Knowsley trust and other nearby hospital trusts for such a move to be thought of as a likely solution.

We are therefore left with the third option, which is some kind of merger or joint venture with the private sector. I was interested to see that when my hon. Friend the Member for St Helens North referred to that option, the Minister, from a sedentary position, seemed to indicate that it was not an option. [Interruption.] Well, I am glad that he clarified that. When my hon. Friend mentioned that option—I think that he used the word “privatisation”—the Minister said no.

[Mr Burns]

Absolutely.

[Mr Howarth]

But presumably the Minister is not ruling out now the possibility that something could happen that would involve the private sector in the long-term future of these hospital sites. No doubt he will enlighten us on that when he replies to the debate.

[Mr Burns]

indicated assent.

[Mr Howarth]

I have to warn the Minister that I am not someone who believes that everything should be owned by the state. There are occasions when I can understand that some co-operation with the private sector is required. In fact, the PFI in itself is in many ways an exemplar of that. On occasion, such an approach is appropriate, but any wholesale transfer of these hospital facilities would meet strong opposition from the public in St Helens, Knowsley and Halton, and it would certainly include my hon. Friends and me, because we do not see that as a viable way forward for these hospital sites. The body language coming from the Minister is encouraging. I just hope that the words that follow are equally encouraging.

Before I conclude, I want to clear up one point, which is what we know and do not know and what we hope the Minister can enlighten us on. I am sure that he is aware that my right hon. Friend the Member for St Helens South and Whiston (Mr Woodward) wrote to the Secretary of State about this matter several weeks ago, seeking clarification; my hon. Friend the Member for St Helens North tabled written parliamentary questions about the subject; and I wrote under the terms of the Freedom of Information Act to the regional health body, the Department and the hospital trust, asking not only for the tripartite document that my hon. Friend has a copy of, but for any advice and other, associated documentation that would throw any light on it. It is because we do not have all the information that there is a great deal of suspicion on the part of local people.

The Minister is a reasonable man whom I know will want to be as open and frank as possible in the debate. I hope he will be able to dispel those fears and leave people with the belief that no conspiracy is going on, that the Government are not trying to manoeuvre our hospitals into some kind of private sector solution and that a solution will be found that is within the NHS and is acceptable to all concerned. If he can do that, the debate that my hon. Friend the Member for St Helens North has promoted today will have been a worthwhile exercise.