Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [Lords]

Debate between Gavin Shuker and James Paice

Tuesday 26th February 2013 Commons Chamber

[Sir James Paice]

I do not know, because it has not been made public. That is a complete irrelevance, however. It is not a reasonable argument, because the situation in this case is the same as it is for judges: if everybody obeyed the law, we would not need any judges, but we would still have them, just in case. There is ample evidence that there will be cases for the adjudicator to adjudicate on, however. The Bill contains a number of limiting provisions, too: the adjudicator can decide not to take up a reference; the adjudicator can fine somebody if the reference has no serious foundation; and the adjudicator’s job is only to arbitrate on alleged breaches of the code, which is quite a narrowly drawn document. I strongly believe the Bill is right as drafted.

[Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op)]

The right hon. Gentleman acquired extensive knowledge of the food sector in his time as a DEFRA Minister. As this new clause addresses the balance of power between suppliers and retailers, I wonder whether in his time as a Minister he came across any evidence that big suppliers were putting downward pressure on retailers in the way the hon. Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) has advanced.

[Sir James Paice]

The honest answer is that, no, I did not come across such evidence, but it may well have been happening and I just did not know about it, because, as my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley rightly said, those very big suppliers can look after themselves. I am not arguing against what has been said. Indeed, I would have had some sympathy for new clause 2 and the £1 billion threshold if I thought my hon. Friend’s motives were justified, but as a result of the rest of his argument I completely lost any support for it that I might otherwise have had. I also think the Bill as currently drafted will militate against big organisations acting in such ways. The Bill is designed to deal with problems that we all agree arise, and which tend to fall on small and medium-sized enterprises.

Public Bodies Bill [Lords]

Debate between Gavin Shuker and James Paice

Tuesday 25th October 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Paice]

Clearly, the worker will negotiate with his putative new employer. [Interruption.] I will be more objective: the real world says that that worker is unlikely to move to someone who will pay him less than the job that he is leaving. That is the reality.

[Gavin Shuker]

rose—

--- Later in debate ---

[Gavin Shuker]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Paice]

No; I will make some progress. I, too, heard the right hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Alun Michael).

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Gavin Shuker and James Paice

Thursday 30th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op)]

I appreciate the Minister’s response, but it appears that confusion still reigns at DEFRA. After last Thursday’s vote, an official in the Department said:

“Given that a ban is not an immediate possibility, we will proceed with a tough licensing regime”.

That prompts an obvious question: why does the Minister continue to frustrate the will of the House? Will he commit himself to introducing a ban during the current parliamentary Session?

[Mr Paice]

I wish that the hon. Gentleman had listened to what I said. The fact is that it is unlawful for a Minister to legislate if he knows that it is unlawful to do so. According to all the advice that we have been given, using section 12 of the Animal Welfare Act 2006 would be extremely likely to raise a judicial challenge, which would not benefit the position.

I have made it clear that we are taking the matter forward. We are exploring all avenues, both in the Department and more widely outside Government, in trying to find the best way of satisfying the desire of the House.

Wild Animals (Circuses)

Debate between Gavin Shuker and James Paice

Thursday 23rd June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Paice]

I shall make a few more points before I give way. My hon. Friend the Member for The Wrekin listed, as did other hon. Members, a range of other countries that have allegedly banned the use of wild animals in circuses. Many of those references were incorrect. A number of countries have selectively banned certain species. A number have rightly banned wild caught wild animals, which is a different issue. My hon. Friend and others speculated that licensing might mean more animals in circuses. I find that difficult to believe. I note the comments from the circuses that were mentioned, but we are not talking just about issuing a licence. We are talking about very tough licensing conditions for keeping such animals.

[Gavin Shuker]

I am sure the whole House would like to hear what those tough licensing conditions would be. If they incorporate travelling for weeks on end up and down motorways chained in a cage and going from place to place, many people would conclude that they are not worth the paper they are written on.

[Mr Paice]

That may well be the judgment that the hon. Gentleman and many others—and probably even I—would come to, but as we have clearly stated, we would go out to consultation in order to form a view of what those standards should be.

Let me conclude my comments on the introductory speech of my hon. Friend the Member for The Wrekin. He never made any attempt to justify using section 12 of the Animal Welfare Act 2006. I shall refer to that in a little more detail. The hon. Member for Poplar and Limehouse also referred to that. I respect him immensely. We shared a mutual respect when I shadowed him, and I think that remains the case, but I must correct his memory on the previous European case, without going through all the detail. He remarked earlier that the circus lost against the ombudsman, but that is not the case; the ombudsman made a damning criticism of maladministration against the Commission, based on the view that it had abdicated its responsibility to maintain the treaties by not interfering in the rights of member states, so there is a distinction.

The hon. Gentleman reminded us of the 2006 Act. I served on the Bill Committee, as did the hon. Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith)—I remember her efforts at that time to introduce a ban, which she described today. It was resisted by the Minister at the time, the right hon. Member for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw), and by Lord Rooker in the other place. While the Bill was on Report on 8 March 2006, the right hon. Member for Exeter stated:

“I intend to use a regulation under clause 10 of the Animal Welfare Bill to ban the use in travelling circuses of certain non-domesticated species”.—[Official Report, 8 March 2006; Vol. 443, c. 61WS.]

That was in March 2006, over four years before the general election. Whatever the good intent of the hon. Member for Poplar and Limehouse, the fact is that his Government did nothing, despite that declared intent.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Gavin Shuker and James Paice

Thursday 12th May 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Paice]

As the hon. Gentleman is aware, there has been a lot of speculation about circuses. There have been recent press reports that the Austrian Government have been taken to court for their attempt to ban wild animals in circuses, so our Government can hardly recommend something that might not be legal. I can assure him, however, that the proposals we will bring forward shortly will be tough enough to ensure that animal welfare in circuses is properly protected.

[Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op)]

It has been reported, and suggested by the Minister, that there will be enhanced inspections rather than a ban on wild animals in circuses. Labour’s consultation showed that 94% of respondents favoured a ban. The petition in The Independent attracted nearly 15,000 signatures in the past week, and crucially on 3 April DEFRA briefed that it favoured a ban as well. Another month, more drift and no announcement: is it dither, delay or No. 10 that is preventing the Secretary of State from showing some leadership?

[Mr Paice]

The hon. Gentleman obviously did not listen to the answer I just gave. Whether we like it or not, this court case is going on in Europe and therefore the British Government could not bring forward a proposal—although I am interested to hear that he would—that might well prove shortly to be unlawful.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Gavin Shuker and James Paice

Thursday 3rd February 2011 Commons Chamber

[Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op)]

16. When she plans to announce proposals arising from her Department’s consultation on the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991.

[The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice)]

We are working closely with the Home Office, and we expect an announcement shortly regarding antisocial behaviour, in which the issue of dogs will be included.

[Gavin Shuker]

Members from across the House who have had serious dog attacks in their constituencies will welcome that answer. There are, however, serious concerns about the ability to implement any changes that come from the consultation, given the serious and deep cuts to the Department for Communities and Local Government and to neighbourhood policing. I would like the Minister to respond to that.

[Mr Paice]

I cannot pre-empt the announcements that the Home Office will make shortly. I assure the hon. Gentleman that the plan is not for massive additional public expenditure in dealing with this issue. He will have to await the proposals that will be published shortly.