Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Gareth Thomas and Andrew Griffith

Tuesday 9th May 2023 Commons Chamber

[Andrew Griffith]

My hon. Friend does great service as chair of the all-party group on personal banking and fairer financial services, so he knows of what he speaks. Today, the Government published a call for proposals on the metrics that regulators should publish to support scrutiny of their work; as every business leader knows, what gets measured gets managed. That responds to the significant interest shown by industry and Parliament in ensuring that appropriate and transparent public measures are in place to support scrutiny of the regulators’ performance. The Government are clear that with great power must come greater accountability.

[Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op)]

One measure that would improve the regulatory framework for mutuals in the financial services sector, such as Royal London or Liverpool Victoria, would be the introduction of permanent mutual shares. Given that such a reform would allow a new safe route to access the capital that such financial mutuals need to expand—and without having to demutualise—will the Minister explain why the Treasury is still dragging its feet on the introduction of such a significant reform?

[Andrew Griffith]

The hon. Gentleman and I have talked a number of times about this. I do not think it is fair to say that the Treasury is dragging its feet. We have supported reform of the mutuals sector. We welcome a diversity of provision, which involves a greater expansion of and more commercial freedom for the mutuals sector. With the Law Commission, we are looking to take its work forward to see whether we can help, and I am always happy to sit down with him, or with any representatives from the sector, as part of my widespread programme of engagement.

Co-operatives, Mutuals and Friendly Societies Bill (First sitting)

Debate between Gareth Thomas and Andrew Griffith

Committee stage
Wednesday 30th November 2022 Public Bill Committees

[Andrew Griffith]

I thank my hon. Friend for his point. It is a laudable ambition, which I am certainly happy to devote time to. Mutuals with the values of people in the community at their core are genuinely central to the vibrant, competitive and diverse—we are in favour of financial diversity—way in which the UK can serve the whole community. It is right that we look at how we do that, and how we can access capital. There are some technical points—I believe that Opposition Members understand that—in ensuring that we retain the tax advantages of mutuals, and do not inadvertently make them look more and more like corporate entities, which they are not, thereby prejudicing that tax treatment.

[Gareth Thomas]

I take the Minister’s point that there are some technical issues, but there has seemingly not been a great deal of will from HMRC thus far to try to find a way forward on them. Will he set out what instructions he has given to HMRC officials, perhaps to co-operate with the Law Commission, or whether separate work is being done within the Treasury to find a way around those technical issues? One of the things that came out of the LV= story—it was not a particular issue for LV=, but it certainly was for other mutuals—was that access to capital is holding back the development of friendly societies and their ability to offer more wide-ranging products and services.

[Andrew Griffith]

I am sure that my steely-eyed colleagues at HMRC do not need any particular direction, but they will have some challenge from me. I have already started to engage in that space. The hon. Member will appreciate that the corpus of law in this area is substantial, and that we should proceed cautiously. I will come on to the Law Commission, and perhaps that can be—

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[Gareth Thomas]

Will there be an opportunity for the House in some way to consider whether the scope of the review is as wide-ranging as those of us who are advocates of the sector across parties think is necessary?

[Andrew Griffith]

I am always happy to engage with the hon. Member. The simple answer is that I do not know whether it is for the House to engage, but I am happy—I hope my actions to date speak as loudly as my words—to engage on what that scope should be. I certainly assure him that, before the launch of a review, the sector will be consulted. If hon. Members have particular points to make, I am keen to hear them.

The future of mutuality looks bright and prosperous. That ambition is supported by the Government. I commend the hon. Member for Preston for his work on the Bill. The Government will support it.

Trade Bill (Fifth sitting)

Debate between Gareth Thomas and Andrew Griffith

Committee stage & Committee Debate: 5th sitting: House of Commons
Tuesday 23rd June 2020 Public Bill Committees

[Andrew Griffith (Arundel and South Downs) (Con)]

May I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on his damascene conversion to parliamentary democracy and scrutiny of trade, which are things that, as part of our membership of the European Union, we would never have been able to engage in? It is only because the Government are getting Brexit done that we can even entertain these ideas.

[Gareth Thomas]

The hon. Gentleman opens up a whole new area for discussion and I am grateful to him for doing so. Let me confess in these secret discussions here in this House that the biggest mistake that I made when I was a Minister was to agree in 2007—in the run-up to the general election in that year that never was—to appear before seven Select Committees in the space of two weeks, confident in the knowledge that a general election was about to happen and that, actually, I would instead be spending my time with the great people of Harrow West.

Imagine my horror when I discovered that we were not going ahead with a general election and that I would have to appear and talk about our trade policy to seven Select Committees, one after the other over a two-week period. Boy, did I know the detail of trade policy by the end of those that two weeks, and crucially I also had confidence that the negotiating teams working on the EU negotiations knew the detail, too.

The hon. Member for Arundel and South Downs mentioned Brexit. The decision of the British people to go ahead with Brexit gives us the opportunity to rewrite the UK’s deal with Canada, which we will consider when we debate amendment 9—I suspect that the whole House could potentially be grateful for that opportunity. I look forward to hearing the hon. Gentleman’s interventions then, too.

As well as seeking a mandate, the amendments would require Ministers to be much more open and transparent with the British people about the likely impact of the negotiations and, crucially, how each round of the negotiations have gone. They would require the consent of the British people through their representatives in this great House of Parliament to agree to any trade treaty. In short, our amendments would genuinely help the British people to take back control of who the businesses they work in can trade with and on what terms. They would give, for example, key workers a say in how the services that we all recognise as essential—such as medicines and drugs and our health services—are delivered, and whether trade agreements should impact on them or not. They would give British people the chance to say, “These are the standards that we want those selling goods and services to us as consumers to abide by.”

I do not think it is unreasonable to expect Ministers to put their plans and their record for securing better trade terms to the House of Commons for approval. Under cover of lots of offers of consultation, Ministers seem determined to keep for themselves and No. 10 a power to decide with who and on what terms a trade deal gets done. The picture is painted already, but let us imagine for a moment that the Prime Minister decides to ignore the concerns of Government Members as well as Members across the House about a potential trade deal with China. The negotiated plans would not need the approval of the British people. We would not have access to any of the detail of how those negotiations were going, and potentially only a handful of MPs would have a say. Parliament would in effect be sidelined. The British people, as a result, would be sidelined.

Let us be honest: Government Ministers would pack any statutory instrument Committee with ambitious young Turks, such as the hon. Member for Arundel and South Downs, who recently intervened on me, who are desperate for advancement and so inclined to ask tough questions that they would sit on their hands throughout the entire process. If the Prime Minister would not listen to Conservative MPs’ concerns over Dominic Cummings’s future, what confidence can we have that he would listen to their concerns about a future free trade agreement with China or anyone else?

Modern trade agreements are wide ranging and comprehensive. They do not only cover tariff reductions, but a whole range of regulatory issues, including issues of public health, social standards, labour rights and environmental standards, so detailed parliamentary scrutiny, making Ministers work to convince the British people of the merits of a deal, should be seen as entirely appropriate.

There is a need to properly consider the trade-offs in a trade agreement. The Committee might have heard of a book that five-year-olds like called “The Enchanted Wood”, which I am currently reading with my five-year-old. In it there is a magic faraway tree. At the moment the central characters are going up the magic faraway tree and out through a hole in the clouds to a new land: the land of take-what-you-want. I gently suggest that that is the way in which Ministers are presenting the merits of the trade negotiations that they are seeking to do at the moment. They are not seeking to explain the difficult trade-offs that such negotiations involve. They seek to give the impression that it is all wins for the British people and that there are no downsides to trade agreements.

Once they are signed, trade agreements are very hard to unpick. They are not benevolent arrangements.

Trade Bill (Fourth sitting)

Debate between Gareth Thomas and Andrew Griffith

Committee stage & Committee Debate: 4th sitting: House of Commons
Thursday 18th June 2020 Public Bill Committees

[Andrew Griffith (Arundel and South Downs) (Con)]

I, too, would like to see a greater diversity of types of enterprise and we should do anything that we can in that regard. Co-operative, owner-managed and small businesses are all worthy of our support. I did not want to let the comments that are being made and the amendments that are being spoken to conclude without recording the fact that, if we look merely at the thrust of the amendments, one would conclude that the hon. Gentleman does not fully understand the benefits of free trade, or the substance of what we are trying to achieve in terms of creating wealth, prosperity and opportunities for people, lifting people out of poverty, making sure that our economy is competitive, and creating the tax and the wealth that will produce our public services and make us thrive. I just wanted, by means of an intervention, to give him the opportunity to place on record all those positive benefits of trade, as well as the opportunities that he is seeking to create through the amendments.

[Gareth Thomas]

I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman. I will send him the Co-op party membership application form as a result of this exchange. It is very nice to find a new convert from the Conservative Benches to the need for a more diverse economy. I had thought that the hon. Member for Wycombe (Mr Baker) was the only such enlightened Member of Parliament on those Benches, but I am glad that the hon. Member for Arundel and South Downs is first up of the new intake to catch my eye.