Rural Bank Closures

Gareth Thomas Excerpts

Tuesday 21st February 2012 Westminster Hall

[Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)]

It is a great pleasure to bring this important matter to the attention of the Chamber, and to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Brady. About a year ago, I secured a Westminster Hall debate on a similar matter. Another Treasury Minister responded to that debate, but it is a great pleasure that this Minister is present today to respond to my remarks.

I have secured the debate to reiterate my concerns about the closure of bank branches in rural areas. Although 20% of the population live in rural areas, it has never been more difficult for them to access money and financial services. As hon. Members may recall, I raised this issue nearly a year ago following the closure of Barclays bank in Rhayader in my constituency. That town of nearly 2,000 people was left with a single branch of HSBC bank that ran a reduced service just three days a week. Such a situation made it increasingly difficult for local people and businesses to access their money, and meant that they had either to change their account to HSBC, or travel 14 miles to Builth Wells and the nearest Barclays bank.

Sadly, Brecon and Radnorshire now has a new case study. On 9 March this year—unless the bank has a Damascene conversion as a result of this debate—the branch of HSBC in Presteigne will close. That will leave a community of nearly 2,500 people with just one branch of Lloyds TSB that is open only on Wednesday and Friday and between the limited hours of 9.30 am to 3 pm—a mere 11 hours per week. Furthermore, the branch has no cash machine, and I will return to that point. News of the branch closure met with a huge response from the people of Presteigne, who managed to collect more than 500 signatures in a petition against it. They see the closure as a desperate shame; one resident told me that she has seldom seen the bank empty, and that there is usually a queue.

Let me describe Presteigne in a few words. The editor of Country Life magazine, Clive Aslet, considers it to be one of Britain’s top 10 towns in which to live. It is an active, transition town that engages with environmental issues to an extent rarely seen in other places. It is heading towards a strategy of zero waste; a large allotment area has just opened and proved popular. The voluntary East Radnor day centre brings in elderly people from the countryside to share friendship and a meal together, as well as providing other services. Presteigne’s music festival is internationally renowned and premiers many musical compositions.

[Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op)]

The hon. Gentleman is describing Presteigne, which sounds almost as beautiful and wonderful as north Harrow in my constituency. That area has also lost its last bank branch, which is impacting on businesses. Does he think that it is incumbent on the Government, perhaps through the Minister, to convene a summit of the big banks and demand that where a bank branch is the last in a community, banks must respect the need of that community for it to remain open? To help the Government achieve that objective, does the hon. Gentleman think that it is worth considering a British version of the Community Reinvestment Act, which forces banks to disclose where they lend and to demonstrate that they are performing well in order to maintain their banking licences?

[Roger Williams]

I believe that the Government have a role to play, and such a summit may be the way forward. We could also support trials of community banks in which a number of different banks come together to provide banking facilities, thereby cutting costs for individual banks but maintaining a facility for the community.

--- Later in debate ---

[Roger Williams]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. Yes, I believe that there may be a role there. There is the American model of a shared bank, whereby one facility houses different banks. They share the costs and maintain a presence in the community. That may be a way forward; the Government could help with, or initiate, a pilot scheme of that type. I had intended to suggest that later.

[Mr Thomas]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for supporting the idea of holding a summit with the banks to discuss branch closures. Does he not think that having such a summit is all the more important given that the Government’s attitude to bank branch closures has arguably become more depressing since his previous debate last March? I ask that because the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, who has direct responsibility for this issue, has said:

“The Government do not intervene in…decisions as to whether, and where, banks maintain branches.”—[Official Report, 26 January 2012; Vol. 539, c. 329W.]

In a recent debate, he also suggested that if the Government intervened to stop bank branch closures, banks would continue to face high costs. Clearly, a more sophisticated Minister is answering this debate, and one hopes that she will have the courage to take a slightly different view. The answers to our questions surely underline the need for a summit so that banks do not think that the Government condone further bank branch closures.

[Roger Williams]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. One reason why I called for the debate is that I am not prepared to allow the closures to go unnoticed. By bringing the issue to the attention of the Government and right hon. and hon. Members, I intend to bring it to the attention of the big four banks, and a number of other banks. These large organisations have a social duty to which they should attend, but it would be useful if the Government could kick things off with an initiative and call for a summit, as the hon. Gentleman said.

When a bank has the last branch in town, it often makes a pledge of some sort to keep it open, but those pledges are often difficult to define; that creates a lot of uncertainty, which can be fuelled by such comments as those made last year by the British Bankers Association. It said:

“Branches will remain open if they are being used. But if the number of customers…coming into the branch falls, then the bank—like any other retail outlet—will need to look carefully at whether it is…viable to keep it open.”

Well, the bank in Presteigne was being used, but a different target was imposed on it, relating to the selling of financial products such as mortgages, pensions and loans. The population of Presteigne is rather stable; it may have made use of those products in the past, but it still expected services from the bank. However, the bank has decided to withdraw from the community.

Banking (Responsibility and Reform)

Gareth Thomas Excerpts

Tuesday 7th February 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hoban]

I was going to discuss the bank payroll tax a little later, but let the hon. Gentleman just ponder for a while why the person who introduced that tax, the former Chancellor, described it as a “one-off” and something that was not workable because it did not change the behaviour. What we have done is introduce the bank levy, which the Labour party opposed when it was in government, and every year that is raising £2.5 billion more than the bank payroll tax raised in a single year. That is the product of well-thought-through taxation policy. We have gone ahead and imposed that bank levy, but the Labour party, when in government, opposed it.

Let me discuss the interaction of bank bonuses and capital. We agree with the interim Financial Policy Committee that capital levels, not bonus payments, have to be the priority. Banks must strengthen their balance sheets as a foundation for lending to families and businesses. That is why the FSA is rigorously scrutinising bank distribution plans, and it will not approve plans unless they are consistent with required capital levels, ensuring that banks maintain the capital they need in order to finance businesses. It is because of our leadership that bonus levels have already started to fall. According to the Centre for Economics and Business Research, City bonuses tripled under Labour, and when the shadow Chancellor was Minister for the City they were £11.6 billion. At the time, the shadow Business Secretary was carefully drafting the contracts to ensure that people could earn those bonuses. Last year, bonuses were almost half that figure, at £6.7 billion, and we fully expect them to fall further this time. Thanks to the action we have taken, bonus pools have come down and Labour’s cash bonus culture has been ended.

[Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op)]

The Minister may be aware that the number of bank branch closures is beginning to rise again, as is the number of branches with restricted opening hours. Will he tell the House what decisive action he has taken to reverse those trends?

Tax Avoidance (Public Servants)

Gareth Thomas Excerpts

Thursday 2nd February 2012 Commons Chamber

[Danny Alexander]

I well understand why people would see it that way—frankly, I see it that way myself. It is interesting that already today we have heard one example, from my hon. Friend the Member for South Norfolk (Mr Bacon), who is a member of the PAC, of a similar arrangement made under the previous Government. Of course, the review will not look back on arrangements that have now been discontinued, but will look at those currently in existence in the public sector in order to ensure that everyone pays their fair share of tax. I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth West (Conor Burns) will strongly agree with that.

[Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op)]

In December, I tabled a round robin question to every Department asking whether senior staff in Departments, Executive agencies and non-departmental public bodies were

“paid by means of payments to a limited company”.

On 5 December, the Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, the hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr Davey), who has responsibility for consumer affairs, replied on behalf of BIS:

“The Department's policy is that staff salaries are paid into employees’ bank accounts.”

He also wrote that

“there is no evidence that any senior civil servants in the Department for Business Innovation and Skills and its non-departmental public bodies are paid by means of payments to a limited company in lieu of a salary.”—[Official Report, 5 December 2011; Vol. 537, c. 152-3W.]

Why did they get it wrong, and why did I not get an answer from the chief executive of the Student Loans Company?

[Danny Alexander]

That answer described the arrangements as I understood them until I received information about this case in the past few days. The inquiry that I have put in place will reveal whether any more of these arrangements exist elsewhere in Government.

Northern Rock

Gareth Thomas Excerpts

Monday 21st November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hoban]

I question whether the hon. Gentleman himself understands mutuals. There are situations where mutuals come forward and make bids. We have seen the consolidation of the mutual sector in recent years as a consequence of the financial crisis, so there are different ways in which a mutual option could arise. Let me reassure the hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends. We looked closely at the mutualisation option, and we were open in reaching out to Mutuo, Adrian Coles, the Building Societies Association and Jonathan Michie to encourage them to come forward with a workable solution for how Northern Rock could be remutualised. No one came forward with such a solution. That is why this deal is the best one for the taxpayer.

[Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op)]

The Minister was asked at the all-party financial mutuals inquiry to publish in full the Deutsche Bank report to UKFI on the future of Northern Rock. Why will he not publish any of that report or any of the details of the other conversations that he says he has had with Mutuo and others? Does he not recognise that his failure to do so calls into question the seriousness of his commitment to financial mutuals?

[Mr Hoban]

I say this to the hon. Gentleman and other Members on the Opposition Benches who represent the Co-operative party: we have worked hard since we came into office to find ways to strengthen the mutual sector. That is why we have finally pushed through the legislative reform order which will make it easier for credit unions to expand, why we set up a fund in the Department for Work and Pensions to encourage credit unions to expand, and why we have pushed through, after years of inactivity by Labour when in government, a new capital instrument for building societies. This party is committed to diversity in financial services. We have done more to help the mutual sector in the past 18 months than the previous Government did before they left office. I believe we have a strong message on mutuals, and what we have here is the best outcome for the taxpayer and Northern Rock.

Oral Answers to Questions

Gareth Thomas Excerpts

Tuesday 6th September 2011 Commons Chamber

[Danny Alexander]

I can certainly assure my hon. Friend of that. Unlike under the previous Government, No. 10 Downing street and the Treasury work very well together on these issues.

[Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op)]

11. What recent assessment he has made of the level of economic growth.

[The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr Mark Hoban)]

Our economic policy objective is to achieve strong, sustainable and balanced growth, more evenly shared across the country and between industries. The independent Office for Budget Responsibility’s forecast, published at the Budget, takes full account of the policy measures announced in the spending review and in Budget 2011. The OBR forecast that the economy would grow throughout 2011, and in every year of the forecast. It will publish its updated forecast in the autumn.

[Mr Thomas]

As the level of economic growth over the past 12 months was lower in Britain than in the rest of the G7, is it not about time that the Minister had the courage to persuade his right hon. Friend the Chancellor to start work on a plan B?

[Mr Hoban]

It has been very clear, listening to all the international commentators talking about what is happening in the UK economy, that their advice has been to stick to the course and stick to plan A. That is the action that this Government are committed to—[Interruption.] This is interesting. We have one plan; the previous Government seemed to have more plans than they knew what to do with, and that is why they lost their credibility.

Summer Adjournment

Gareth Thomas Excerpts

Tuesday 19th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op)]

I wish to raise two issues. The first involves a group of eight banks, particularly the Royal Bank of Scotland, which has lent money to Davenham Trust Ltd. Davenham intends on Thursday to seek the bankruptcy of my constituent Mr Mark White, having lent one of his businesses £1.7 million. He has repaid approximately £2.2 million, so that is Davenham’s capital plus interest, albeit not the full sum that Davenham is demanding.

I have written to the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills to raise concerns about other aspects of the case, but there are four questions that the Treasury should demand that the Royal Bank of Scotland answer, in its role as administrator of a £300 million lending facility to Davenham. What knowledge of Davenham’s financial problems has it had; how involved has it been in the effort to keep Davenham afloat; what knowledge has it had of efforts to replace Davenham’s board; and finally, what knowledge and scrutiny of Davenham’s business strategy did it have before granting it extended facilities earlier this year, and does it have now?

Bankruptcy would not only mean my constituent losing his home—a bad enough outcome and traumatic for him and his family—but would put at risk a separate company with 200 employees. At that company’s request I spoke to representatives of the Royal Bank of Scotland on Friday, and they made it clear that it is anything but their normal practice to intervene in such a situation. However, I repeat in the House today the request that I put to them on Friday. The times that we are in are tough enough, and RBS should recognise the opportunity to do the right thing and intervene to try to prevent bankruptcy. I hope the Treasury will encourage it in that view.

The second case that I wish to mention involves my constituent Mr Ashok Chatterjee, who was allowed to submit claims for overnight stays that he made while working at RAF Wyton, first at the Alconbury House hotel and later, after it closed, at the Alconbury motel. The Ministry of Defence for a long time believed that my constituent had falsified claims for the one hotel, long after it closed, when in actual fact he was claiming, as allowed, for a stay at a similarly named but different premises. My constituent’s nightmare began when he was formally interviewed concerning possible abuse of his monthly claims. Over the next two years, he was suspended from duty, then reinstated, and then threatened with criminal charges, which were dropped. He was eventually reprimanded, but at the end of the MOD’s appeal process, when the then Permanent Secretary at the Ministry, Sir Kevin Tebbit, revoked the charges against my constituent, he noted significant procedural flaws in how the MOD had handled the case. Sir Kevin also concluded that the personal record of my constituent in his time at the MOD should be restored to one of integrity and honesty.

I feel a deep sympathy for Mr Chatterjee and his family, for whom this has been a terrible experience. He has not been able to put it behind him and move on with his life, suffering considerable stress and illness as a result. I have written to a number of Secretaries of State for Defence, who have not been willing to consider the case for compensation. Mr Chatterjee could not afford to take the financial risk of court action, so I use this debate to ask the MOD to look at all the papers relating to the handling of the original disciplinary charge, in particular, and his appeal, one further time, and consider whether the handling of his case does not in fact merit some out-of-court compensation for the trauma he has gone through, and indeed is still going through.

Oral Answers to Questions

Gareth Thomas Excerpts

Tuesday 21st June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hoban]

The hon. Gentleman makes an important point. Work is under way to look at the regulatory position of Northern Ireland credit unions.

[Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op)]

T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

[The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne)]

As set out before, the core purpose of the Treasury is to ensure the stability of the economy, promote growth and jobs, reform banking and clear up the mess in the public finances that we inherited.

[Mr Thomas]

In Harrow, five police sergeant posts have been axed and Wealdstone police station is being closed. Is that the Chancellor’s fault for cutting public services too far and too fast, or should I blame Boris?

[Mr Osborne]

I blame the Labour Government. During the election campaign, the Labour Home Secretary said publicly on television that police numbers would have to be cut if Labour was re-elected.

Finance (No. 3) Bill

Gareth Thomas Excerpts

Wednesday 4th May 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Gauke]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for acknowledging that it is a significant gap. It is a considerable tax cut for businesses in order to get them to grow. Reducing corporation tax will reduce the revenue we take from an inefficient tax, thereby increasing the rate of return on investment and resulting in greater business investment, greater productivity, higher wages and salaries and more jobs. It is important that we have a dynamic private sector, and that is exactly what we are about.

We have to be internationally competitive. Our tax system is not as competitive as it once was. Over the past decade, our competitors have seized the opportunity to cut their corporation tax rates faster than we have. In 1997, the UK had the 10th-lowest main rate of corporation tax among the 27 EU countries, but by 2010 we were 20th. As a result of the reforms announced in the Budget by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor, the UK will have the fifth-lowest corporation tax rate in the G20, and by the end of this Parliament, it will be the lowest of any major western economy and the lowest rate this country has ever known. By taking our corporate tax rate right down to 23%, we are going further in restoring Britain’s international competitiveness with a corporation tax rate 16 percentage points lower than America’s, 11 percentage points lower than France’s and seven percentage points lower than Germany’s. It will be the lowest corporation tax rate in the G7. We are pleased that we have been able to make progress in this area.

[Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op)]

I am sorry to have missed the many speeches yesterday by the Exchequer Secretary and in particular my right hon. Friend the Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson). I missed them because I was campaigning in west Worcestershire with 50 young people protesting against the decision of Worcestershire country council to withdraw funding from Rubery youth centre, which has played a key role in lowering antisocial behaviour in the area. Have the Exchequer Secretary or his Treasury colleagues considered the impact of the corporation tax cut on the funding of crucial public services, such as youth services?

[Mr Gauke]

I am a little disappointed that an Opposition Front Bencher should be so negative about the reduction in corporation tax, given that his colleagues seem to be more enthusiastic.

[Mr Thomas]

That is not answering the question.

[Mr Gauke]

Let me make this point. The hon. Gentleman talked about being in west Worcestershire. I was there two weeks ago for a meeting with local businesses. I met manufacturers who had full order books and were expanding, investing, welcoming the opportunity to expand their businesses and recognising that the Government were putting in place the conditions for strong private sector growth. It is through such growth that we can have sustainable public finances and we can afford to have the public services that we would all like. However, it is no good spending money that we do not have. The move towards a lower rate of corporation tax will enable us to have stronger, sustainable public finances and a dynamic private sector. It supports the Government’s ambition to achieve the most competitive tax system in the G20, and I therefore commend clause 4 to the Committee.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 4 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 10

Plant and machinery writing-down allowances

Financial Mutuals

Gareth Thomas Excerpts

Wednesday 16th February 2011 Westminster Hall

[Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op)]

I am grateful to Mr Speaker for offering me the opportunity to have this debate. At the outset, I need to declare that I have a mortgage with Northern Rock. I am privileged to be chair of the Co-operative party and one of the party’s 28 Labour/Co-op MPs. It is in that spirit and with their support, but from the Back Benches, that I have sought the debate.

Yesterday, as the Minister will recognise, was business as usual for banking. Barclays bank was carrying on as if Ministers had never been worried about its bonuses or its profits. This is also the week for yet another re-launch of the big society. It is a concept in crisis, unloved by many of the Minister’s colleagues and viewed with profound scepticism by many people in the charity world. What better time, then, for the Minister to offer up a vision—and, crucially, the action to back it up—of the big society that is not an excuse for an attack on public bodies and hard-working public servants, but that instead leads to real change in an area of the corporate world, financial services, where the whole country has wanted a change in culture and behaviour?

Despite a coalition commitment to help mutuals, thus far in financial services there has been little of note. Mutuals and financial mutuals in particular are proof that there is another way—that, important as the public and shareholder-led private sectors both are, there is a way to combine the best of both traditions, to drive enterprise, to foster ambition and to cherish community throughout our country. Financial mutuals, building societies, friendly societies and credit unions were not responsible for the global financial crisis. They do not have a culture of large dividends or excessive bonuses, and they have much more, surely, to offer, but astute Government regulation will be required to foster and encourage the sector.

Both my parties—the Co-operative party and our sister party, the Labour party—were right to call for the remutualisation of Northern Rock at the last election, and I urge the Minister now to set out clearly the Government’s position on that issue. The Banking (Special Provisions) Act 2008 allows state-owned banks to be converted into mutuals. That could be by sale, merger with an existing mutual or the creation of a new entity.

The long-term ownership solution for Northern Rock should take into account some key principles. Taxpayers should not be out of pocket as a result of the change. Hard-working families and small businesses should be protected. The institution that emerges should be secure and responsible and add to the financial stability of the UK economy. The new organisation should act in the long-term interests of its customers.

[Jonathan Evans (Cardiff North) (Con)]

The hon. Gentleman knows that I share his interest in the promotion of mutuality. I am therefore a little disappointed by this being couched in Labour terms. Does he not think it would be helpful if the proposition put to the Minister were that there should be a proper review and examination of the opportunity of mutuality in relation to Northern Rock, rather than it being asserted to him that that is the only option? We should be examining it as fully as we examine any other option.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Thomas]

I end up at the same point as the hon. Gentleman, although I took a different journey to get to that point. I will come back, if I may, to the excellent work he has been doing in chairing the all-party inquiry into financial mutuals.

An expert think-tank based in the university of Oxford set out in September 2009 how and why Northern Rock could and should be remutualised, ensuring that its debt to the taxpayer was paid down, creating a stable financial services provider and constraining it from making the previous mistakes, while helping to secure a more competitive retail financial services market.

The next step, which the hon. Member for Cardiff North (Jonathan Evans) hinted at, would be a full feasibility study examining in detail the financial, governance and leadership issues in respect of a remutualisation. Will the Minister encourage such a feasibility study to be undertaken, either as a Green Paper examining the issues in all their complexity or, if the Treasury wants to maintain some distance, requiring UK Financial Instruments to do that instead? In short, will he now actively investigate the feasibility of the case for remutualisation?

In 2003, PA Consulting Group—not a body that one would naturally think of as being on the left—published an interesting analysis of the relationship between the profits of commercial banks and the market share of mutuals. In short, as mutuals gain market share—in other words, as competition between the various private banks and their mutual competitors increases—bank profits from the retail banking market come down. Potentially, that gives the Minister a significant opportunity to deal with the criticism that, under a Tory-led Treasury, it is business as usual for the banks; he can promote greater competition through the growing mutual sector.

The biggest advantage that mutuals can offer is their long-term view. They are not faced with the short-term need to secure profits. Indeed, Nationwide estimates that the mutual pricing benefit that it enjoyed between 1997 and 2007 because it did not have to put shareholders ahead of members totalled some £3.7 billion. New research, using the published accounts of six shareholder-owned insurers, shows that more than £2.2 billion was paid to shareholders in dividends. That is the dividend drag—the loss incurred by all who seek insurance as a result of buying from a business owned by shareholders. That helps to explain why mutuals, which do not suffer that drag, typically pay higher investment returns, provide better standards of service and pay more claims.

Treasury and Financial Services Authority orthodoxy appears to be that corporate form does not matter, but that what counts is what those various corporate bodies do for their consumers. Such a view is simplistic and not sufficiently considered to warrant the hands-off approach to corporate diversity that often appears to characterise the approach of the FSA and the Treasury. Let me be clear: I do not advocate a mutual-only way, but robust diversity is important in ensuring real competition and giving consumers a real series of options in the market.

New capital rules being introduced in the wake of the global financial crisis may give rise to insufficient care being given to protecting and increasing the remaining strength of the building society movement. The FSA’s new interpretation of the rules on capital may, over a number of years, bring about the end of friendly societies. Both sets of draft capital requirements could profoundly damage the competitiveness of financial mutuals, and they do not reflect the fundamental difference between financial mutuals that are run for members, and the basic banks or private insurers, which are run for shareholder gain.

The European capital requirements directive is designed to enable financial services businesses better to absorb losses following the introduction of the new Basel standards. I accept that that is an important part of the response to the global financial crisis; it focuses on improving the quantity and quality of capital, particularly what is called core tier 1 capital. Over the last 20 years, building societies’ capital reserves have been supplemented by permanent interest-bearing shares. However, they will not meet more demanding definitions for core tier 1 capital.

I recognise that building societies need to have access to new ways of securing capital that are permanent and that fully absorb losses. At the moment, the rules are being framed with only one type of corporate form in mind—the private bank. They do not recognise the fact that mutuals are structured and function differently, providing value to their customers over the medium and longer term. If building societies are forced to adopt plc-like capital, they will have to adopt plc-like behaviour. Building societies are trusted, safe and responsible precisely because they are not part of what “St Vince” calls the casino economy. Surely it would be a mistake to force upon them a new type of equity capital that would import excessive risk-taking.

I realise that there has been movement in the discussions between building societies and the Government on this matter, but I ask the Minister what progress has been made—and, just as important, what has he done personally to move things forward with his European counterparts?

There has been less progress in discussions with friendly societies. The FSA, revisiting its own rule book, seems hellbent on clinging to a piece of legal advice that has not been shared with the industry and which is at odds with every legal opinion that the industry has received. It seems to be based on a ministerial view from the mid-1990s that the then Minister publicly acknowledged was not intended for mutuals. Why cannot the FSA share its legal advice with the industry? If its motivation is that it does not want to damage friendly societies, why cannot a joint solution be found? If a solution cannot be found, mutual insurers would have to pay out a significant proportion of the capital held in their organisations; the consequence of that could be that they had little or no working capital and would have to shut up shop or demutualise.

I am grateful that Hector Sants attended the inquiry of the all-party group on building societies and financial mutuals, but frankly I doubt whether he has yet grasped the seriousness of the situation that friendly societies face as a result of his organisation’s proposal. Even now, I hope he will agree to an urgent review of the FSA’s legal advice and step up efforts to find a solution. If he does not, and if the Minister does not intervene, consumers will have less choice, plcs will take greater profits and customers will face higher charges. I would welcome the Minister’s response.

The Minister is responsible for ushering in changes to financial services regulations. They offer the opportunity to lock in a new requirement to champion corporate diversity and, crucially, new structures to ensure that we have people of sufficient calibre and status in the regulatory landscape to deal with building societies and friendly societies. Will the Minister support a requirement to promote corporate diversity in financial services when bringing forward the Bills to set out new arrangements for the City? What action is he taking to ensure that mutuals will be the responsibility of those high enough in the pecking order to make a difference when needed?

I turn to credit unions. The Minister will recognise that there is widespread concern about high interest rates for consumer credit and the activities of illegal loan sharks. I hope he realises the opportunity that properly managed credit unions can provide in meeting the needs of those wanting relatively small sums of money at affordable rates. Access to credit unions in the UK has been growing. For example, I understand that Wales has a credit union in every part of the country. That is not the case in England, although things have been slowly improving in recent years.

[Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/Co-op)]

My hon. Friend may be aware that access to credit unions in Scotland has improved of late. I hope he will join me in paying tribute to Hamilton credit union, which is developing financial services for children and young people to help get them into the culture of saving, so that in future they will be more financially responsible.

[Mr Thomas]

I welcome the progress that has been made in Scotland, and particularly the work of the Hamilton credit union outlined by my hon. Friend. What action will the Minister take to champion the further growth of credit unions across the UK?

Mutuals make a vital difference by generating more competition in financial services, and they help to create more value for the consumer, as opposed to the shareholder. I look forward to the Minister’s response to my questions.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Hoban]

My hon. Friend makes an important point and it is one that he and I discussed before this debate. His argument, which he has expressed publicly, is that his statement was not intended to be applied to all forms of with-profits funds. The FSA is aware of that view. None the less, it is important that this issue is treated very carefully. I am well aware that for many mutual insurers, their capital comes from with-profits funds. Without that with-profits fund, they would not be able to function in the way in which they do now. It is also fair to say that for a proprietary-owned business, the with-profits fund belongs to its policyholders. We have seen a number of firms go through a reattribution process in recognition of the fact that those funds belong to the members of that fund. There is a challenge there that we need to address and we need to be very careful about the impact of decisions on the ecology of the mutual insurer sector.

[Mr Thomas]

As I suggested in my remarks, the FSA’s position appears to be based on a particular legal opinion that it has secured. Will the Minister ask the FSA to revisit that legal opinion, bearing in mind that all the other legal opinions that the industry has received are at odds with that opinion? Will he also specifically ask the FSA to share that legal advice with the industry, as part of the process of trying to facilitate a solution?

[Mr Hoban]

The best route for resolving this is through the response to the consultation paper, which the FSA will publish later this year. It is for the FSA to decide whether or not it should disclose legal opinions, because it is an independent regulator. The consultation paper is an important way in which to resolve these issues.

I was talking about the need to create a modernised legislative framework for mutuals, and capital is part of that. The Government are also implementing legislation to allow mutuals to modernise the way in which they communicate with their members and to enable them to prosper. The Legislative Reform (Industrial and Provident Societies and Credit Unions) Order 2010 has been a long time coming. It will be re-laid before Parliament next month and will introduce many quite basic, yet far-reaching reforms that will enable credit unions to modernise and grow.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Hoban]

That point about access to credit unions in Wales was made before the hon. Gentleman came into Westminster Hall for the debate. We need to learn the lessons. The Treasury is very open to new ideas and any thoughts that he has about why Wales has that degree of access to credit unions would be much appreciated.

We will also implement the Co-operative and Community Benefit Societies and Credit Unions Act 2010 once the legislative reform order comes into force. That will modernise the industrial and provident society name and the powers available to update the legislation in the future. Other reforms include a consultation on the use of electronic communications in the mutual sector. That consultation closed at the end of January, and we will lay an order shortly to enable mutual societies to have the option of using electronic communications to engage with their members, which would reduce their costs.

Before I go on to talk about the regulatory framework, let me address the issue of Northern Rock. That issue was raised in the Treasury Committee, and I am aware of the work that has been done on it by Kellogg college. There is a degree of elegant circularity about remutualising Northern Rock, given its antecedence. But of course the responsibility for managing the Government’s investment in Northern Rock rests with United Kingdom Financial Investments Ltd. UKFI gave evidence to the Select Committee, and if the hon. Member for Harrow West reads the transcript of that sitting, he will see that it is open to ideas about the remutualisation of Northern Rock. The principal objective of UKFI is to promote and create value for taxpayers from its management of our stakes in banks, but it also has to pay due regard to financial stability and act in a way that promotes competition. Clearly a remutualised Northern Rock might help it to do those things.

[Mr Thomas]

rose—

[Mr Hoban]

Before I give way to the hon. Gentleman, I will just say that the taxpayer has a £1.4 billion stake in Northern Rock, so any solution in terms of remutualisation would need to identify a clear way in which the taxpayer would receive a return on that investment. Furthermore, it is not clear how a large Government shareholding in a mutual would affect mutual status.

[Mr Thomas]

As I said in my opening remarks, I absolutely acknowledge the point about the taxpayers’ interest in Northern Rock. However, rather than just allowing the people at UKFI to sit there waiting for ideas, will he write to them and specifically ask them to conduct a feasibility study into the remutualisation of Northern Rock, addressing the taxpayer issue that he quite rightly mentioned as well as other wider issues? Will he take proactive action on this issue?

[Mr Hoban]

If the hon. Gentleman reads the transcript of the evidence given by UKFI to the Treasury Committee, he will know that remutualisation is very much on its agenda. In conjunction with Northern Rock, it is about to appoint advisers to advise it on the disposal process. I know that UKFI is looking at remutualisation. However, I have yet to see a proposal that demonstrates why remutualisation is in the interests of taxpayers. Nevertheless, we are open-minded on this issue, and we will wait to see a viable proposal emerge.

Regarding the regulatory framework for mutuals, we will bring Northern Ireland credit unions within the regulatory structure that is in place in the rest of Great Britain. That will enhance consumer protection and ensure that those credit unions become part of the Financial Services Compensation Scheme, which will enable their members to appeal to the Financial Ombudsman Service. It will also enable those credit unions to seek approval to enter new markets and therefore help them to grow. In addition, we are looking at the registration and regulation of industrial and provident societies as part of our review of the regulatory architecture. I know that that is a concern of the co-operative movement and we will seek views on it shortly.

The hon. Member for Harrow West raised the issue of an objective on diversity for the new regulatory structure. Again, that point has been raised with me before. My concern is to ensure that the new regulators, learning from the mistakes of the past, focus on what matters—confidence in financial services, and the stability and soundness of institutions. That should be their driving force and I do not think that an objective on diversity would fit within the new framework.

We want to see mutuals grow and thrive. We are introducing measures on legislative reform and new capital levels, and we are offering greater support to the mutual sector. Mutuals have a big role to play in the future development of financial services, and this Government are keen to do all we can to ensure that they continue to provide an important service to communities across the UK.

Question put and agreed to.

Business without Debate

Gareth Thomas Excerpts

Tuesday 7th December 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his point of order. The concern of the Chair is always that matters should be handled in an orderly manner. [Interruption.] Order. That has happened, whatever the disquiet or consternation the right hon. Gentleman or others may feel. I know that he will understand that it would not be right for me, from the Chair, to say anything more on the matter. His concerns have, however, been forcefully registered.

[Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op)]

Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. I expected to be debating with the Minister for Universities and Science tonight, yet we have not had even the courtesy of an explanation why the Government have not moved their motions tonight. Have you been given an explanation? How can it be acceptable that students will be saddled with £39,000-worth of debt after just three hours of debate in the House—£13,000 of debt for each hour of debate?

[Mr Speaker]

My simple response to the hon. Gentleman is that it would not be right now to rehearse matters of substance relating to the tuition fees debate, which there will be an opportunity to develop on Thursday. I am sure the hon. Gentleman looks forward to that opportunity. He, too, has put his concerns explicitly on the record.