European Union (Withdrawal Arrangements) Bill

Debate between Fleur Anderson and Jim Allister

2nd reading
Friday 6th December 2024 Commons Chamber

[Jim Allister]

I will when I have dealt with some other points.

That is an assault upon the sincerity and efficacy of those who dare to say, “If we are part of the United Kingdom, we need to be treated as part of the United Kingdom.” The hon. Member for Belfast South and Mid Down (Claire Hanna) did not explain why she thinks it right to disenfranchise her constituents and to reject a workable and practical solution. Those who reject a workable and practical solution are those who do not want such a solution in respect of the Irish border. That was very clear from her intervention.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Fleur Anderson)]

Several years ago, former Prime Minister Boris Johnson told us that there was an oven-ready deal. That was clearly not the case, because we are still discussing this. The hon. and learned Member has mentioned mutual enforcement, but nowhere in the world does mutual enforcement happen wholesale under trading regulations between countries. The only workable deal that has been struck was reached not by politics, but through a pragmatic working out, and that is the Windsor framework. Is he selling something that cannot actually work? The mutual enforcement idea has been described by the EU Commission as magical thinking.

[Jim Allister]

I remind the Minister that the magical thinking came from the EU itself, through Jonathan Faull and his colleagues, who made that very suggestion. And why would what I suggest not work? If the EU is our friend—if we trust it and it trusts us—why would it not trust us to keep our word on imposing its standards on our goods entering its territory? If that does not work, then it is time to talk about alternatives, but that proposal should be the starting point. There was the whimsical dismissal that it would not work, even though it has never been tried. The really chilling thing about the Minister’s intervention is its subtext: “Suck it up, Northern Ireland. You’re no longer a full part of the United Kingdom. You will just live like a colony of the EU, under its laws in 300 areas. We have no empathy and no desire to fix it; we will just leave you in that position.” That is the chilling import of her intervention.

--- Later in debate ---

[Fleur Anderson]

I listened carefully to the examples that the hon. Gentleman gave on behalf of his constituents. They are concerning, and we need to listen to them carefully. I absolutely understand the concerns raised by other Members in this debate as well. It is useful to have this debate, so that we can talk about those issues, but without the Windsor framework, there would be no framework from within which to negotiate changes. Many changes have been made since the establishment of the Windsor framework, and that shows that it can flex, allow negotiation, and allow for practices and schemes, such as the internal market scheme, that enable the smooth flow of trade. That is the benefit of having the Windsor framework, rather than ditching it.

[Jim Allister]

The Minister talked about the flexibility of the Windsor framework in allowing change. Of course, the Windsor framework was not able to change one word of the substantial content of the protocol, because the protocol involved giving the EU control over the vast swathes of our economy that are under those 300 areas of law. It involved putting Northern Ireland under the EU’s customs code. Only if that is reversed can Northern Ireland return to the UK internal market and be retrieved from the EU single market. The Windsor framework does none of that, and even with the greatest will in the world, it is not capable of doing any of that. It can tinker; it cannot change.

[Fleur Anderson]

I will come to his important point on the 300 areas of laws, because it is important to put that in context. However, I reiterate that having a framework within which to negotiate is better for all those areas than not having one, resetting things and trying to do in just three months what has been done and talked about for the past eight years. That is what this Bill would do.

I will cover the points made by the hon. and learned Member for North Antrim and by others. They were sincerely made, but the Government sincerely disagree. Before I come to the substance of the Bill, it is important that this House should deal in facts, and I am afraid that the opening speech of the hon. and learned Member for North Antrim contained a number of factual inaccuracies that it is important to correct. He claimed that a Stormont brake is nothing more than a request from the Assembly for the law to be disapplied. Back-seat driving was referred to. That is incorrect. In fact, schedule 6B of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 places a strict legal duty on the Government to act where the brake is validly used by Members of the Northern Ireland Assembly.

The hon. and learned Gentleman has used hyperbolic and frankly incendiary language, impugning the motives of our partners and allies, all the while ignoring the fact that this House voted for the arrangements that now apply. I can only presume that he supports the sovereignty of this Parliament. Indeed, he has opposed the existence of the Northern Ireland Assembly under the Good Friday agreement, so he should reflect on the fact that the Windsor framework represents the democratic will of this House. He made repeated reference to the 300 areas where EU law is applicable to Northern Ireland. He ignores the fact that, under the Windsor framework, more than 1,700 pages of EU law, with accompanying European Court of Justice jurisdiction, have been disapplied. They cover areas such as VAT, medicines, which were referred to, and food safety; the UK Government can decide on them, and UK courts can interpret issues to do with them. I have my own views on the whole process, but that was faithfully applied after the democratic vote to withdraw from the EU.

[Jim Allister]

rose—

[Fleur Anderson]

I will give way, but I will not do so too much, as I will not have time to go through all my points otherwise.

[Jim Allister]

Are there, or are there not, 300 areas of law that are now beyond the legislative reach of this House and the Assembly because they lie within the purview of the European Parliament? Is that true or false?

[Fleur Anderson]

There was this trilemma, involving the integrity of the UK internal market; avoiding a hard border on the island of Ireland; and respecting that our EU partners have a legitimate interest, and being able to co-ordinate trade with it. Those 300 regulations, which are a very small amount of the whole, allow for things like dairy farmers moving milk over the border and back, which I am sure the hon. and learned Gentleman would agree is necessary. They allow for smooth movement of trade. Those remaining regulations enable businesses in Northern Ireland to go about their business.

The hon. and learned Gentleman has claimed that the vast majority of veterinary medicines are at risk of being discontinued at the end of next year. That is also incorrect. He is right that there are ongoing issues that the Government are working hard with industry and farmers to address, and I am glad that they have been raised by Members today. However, he is simply wrong to say that the vast majority of veterinary medicines are at risk, and engagement with industry suggests no such thing.

The hon. and learned Gentleman claimed that the Windsor framework has caused shortages in medicines for diabetes. Again, that is incorrect. Various factors can sometimes give rise to gaps in medicine supplies across the United Kingdom. The overwhelming majority of medicines are in good supply, and we have well-established processes to manage supply issues. His claim that such issues are in any way a result of the Windsor framework, or are specific to Northern Ireland, is wrong.

The hon. and learned Gentleman held up the Good Friday agreement and asked where it demands that there be no border infrastructure on the island of Ireland. I know he has his own reservations about that agreement; perhaps that is why the facts have not been understood. That agreement was one of the proudest achievements of the last Labour Government, and the peace and security it has produced are premised in no small part on the normalisation of security. The absence of a hard border is an overwhelmingly good thing. The hon. and learned Gentleman asked for quotes, and I shall oblige him. The agreement committed to a normalisation of security arrangements and practices, and committed the British Government to

“the objective of as early a return as possible to normal security arrangements”.

The common travel area has existed for more than a century, and is integral to the movement of people and goods on the island of Ireland.

[Jim Allister]

Will the Minister give way?

[Fleur Anderson]

I am going to make some progress. To the Government’s mind, this commitment to normal security arrangements could not be met, under the common travel area arrangements, with a hard border of the sort that the Bill would institute.

The hon. and learned Gentleman indicated that, come what may, he wants his part of the UK enabled to follow the rest out of the EU. I need not remind him that the whole of the UK left the European Union, and that the debate has been settled. We can see that he would prefer that damaging hard border for Northern Ireland.

[Fleur Anderson]

There are absolutely minimal stops along the border. It is not a hard border, but circumstances would be very different under the Bill, which implies an ideological hard Brexit—

[Jim Allister]

Will the Minister give way?

[Fleur Anderson]

No, I will make some progress now.

--- Later in debate ---

[Fleur Anderson]

I will make some progress now, because time is running out in this debate and I want to get to the end.

On the consent vote, it is simply wrong to claim that all major decisions in Northern Ireland require cross-community agreement. As the hon. Member for Belfast South and Mid Down (Claire Hanna) pointed out, cross-community agreement was not required for Northern Ireland to leave the EU and is not a requirement for constitutional change, in line with the principle of consent in the Good Friday agreement. The reality is that the Good Friday agreement never envisaged a device such as the consent vote, so the arrangements for that vote were determined by this House and the amendments that it made to the Northern Ireland Act.

Let me briefly thank right hon. and hon. Members who have contributed to the debate, including my hon. Friend the Member for Bootle (Peter Dowd), the right hon. Member for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson), the hon. Members for North Down (Alex Easton) and for Belfast South and Mid Down, the right hon. Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Sir Iain Duncan Smith), my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing Southall (Deirdre Costigan) and the hon. Member for Brentwood and Ongar (Alex Burghart), and others who have yet to contribute. I am grateful to Members for raising many issues, which I will take away. I am also grateful for the comments from the hon. Member for Brentwood and Ongar and others about continuing to speak, and about dialogue.

I turn now to the substance of the Bill. I shall set out three reasons why the Government cannot support it today. First, the Bill cannot be said to be compatible with international law. I know that the hon. and learned Member for North Antrim has made assertions about international law, but the absolute truth is that the Bill is premised on replacing the agreed measures under the Windsor framework with unilateralism and uncertainty. In the circumstances, that would constitute a breach of the UK’s agreements, which would be unlawful under international law.

This Government are committed to the rule of the law and to meeting the UK’s international obligations, and the Bill contains a set of unilateral measures that do no such thing. This is not an abstract matter; it is a matter of consequence. We must be clear that it is never in any nation’s interests to flagrantly disregard international law and treaty obligations. Doing so would weaken our standing abroad and our prospects for beneficial international agreements in the future, which matters, particularly for Northern Ireland.

As the House knows, the Government were elected with a mandate to reset our relationship with the EU and tear down trade barriers, including by negotiating a sanitary and phytosanitary agreement. Hon. Members have raised concerns about the operation of the Windsor framework, but there is significant potential for practical issues to be improved or addressed through the negotiation of such an agreement. That is in the best interests of Northern Ireland, and it is in the interests of the United Kingdom as a whole, but a nation that turns its back on prior commitments cannot hope to persuade others to enter new and beneficial arrangements.

I know that, as a proud Unionist, the hon. and learned Member for North Antrim will appreciate the potential benefits of such an agreement to Northern Ireland and to strengthening the Union, so I confess that I am somewhat baffled that he is promoting legislation that would be so detrimental to the prospect of securing future agreements. It is playing fast and loose with the rule of law, which is very bad for business. The Bill would create conditions in which businesses and citizens can never be certain about which rules will be respected and which will not. It would create uncertainty over the regulatory framework on which businesses in Northern Ireland now rely to trade, including the ability to trade across the island of Ireland without friction. It would do so automatically by bringing down a hard guillotine on the trading arrangements in just three months, leaving businesses no time to adjust. It would be an economic shock.

In my time working on international development campaigns, I saw at first hand at the World Trade Organisation what regulatory certainty and uncertainty can do for the prospects of small businesses, the jobs they create and the economies they contribute to. I can personally attest that it is better for those businesses to work on the basis of agreed trade arrangements than to leave them stranded in the choppy waters of regulatory uncertainty.

Secondly, the Bill does nothing to account for Northern Ireland’s unique circumstances. Let us be honest: these issues have been discussed, debated, analysed and dissected in this House for nearly a decade now, as other Members have said. They have occupied the political life of the nation for some time, and it is right that they have done so. The concerns of the hon. and learned Member for North Antrim, and those of right hon. and hon. Members from the Democratic Unionist party and the Ulster Unionist party, are real and legitimate, and deserve to be taken seriously. But, although I understand and respect the strength of feeling behind the Bill, I say respectfully to the hon. and learned Gentleman that neither this Bill, nor the similar variations on its proposal that have been advanced over the past nine years, do anything to address the practical issues in a more stable and sustainable manner than the Windsor framework addresses them.

[Jim Allister]

Will the Minister give way?

[Fleur Anderson]

I am going to make progress.

As I said earlier, the core challenge remains the trilemma: how do we preserve the integrity of the UK’s internal market, avoid a hard border on the island of Ireland, and respect the legitimate interests of our EU partners in protecting their single market, just as we seek to protect ours? The Windsor framework provides an answer to a very difficult question. I say simply that, across several elections, the vast majority of right hon. and hon. Members elected to this place have been elected on a platform of avoiding a hard border. For good reason, then, we need to support the Windsor framework.

Thirdly, the Bill would serve to prejudice the democratic decision that the Northern Ireland Assembly is making itself. Last month, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland initiated the progress for the Northern Ireland Assembly to decide on the continued application of articles 5 to 10 of the Windsor framework. That vote is provided for in the Windsor framework and under domestic law, which was strengthened under the terms of “Safeguarding the Union”. It is now a matter for Northern Ireland’s elected representatives to decide on. I am pleased that the elected representatives of the people of Northern Ireland are able, as part of the functioning devolved institutions, to exercise the important democratic scrutiny functions included in the Windsor framework. The Bill would fatally undermine the powers that those in the Assembly have over scrutinising regulations that apply in Northern Ireland.

The Government will only support sustainable arrangements for Northern Ireland that work for business, protect the UK’s internal market and uphold our international obligations. The Windsor framework does just that, and the Government are firmly committed to it, just as stridently as we are committed to the UK internal market and to Northern Ireland flourishing within a strengthened Union. Just as important is that we will be honest with the people of Northern Ireland about what is and is not possible, and what the trade-offs are with various options. There will be no more magical thinking; no reopening of the wardrobe into a political Narnia of mythical solutions to the practical issues that we must consider in respect of trade; and no more simplifications that work as soundbites but do not stand up in reality. At this crucial time, the people of Northern Ireland deserve honesty.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Fleur Anderson and Jim Allister

Wednesday 27th November 2024 Commons Chamber

[Fleur Anderson]

I thank the right hon. Member for raising that issue. This is an excellent opportunity to raise something that I have not yet looked at. I will go away and study it, because it sounds like a very important aspect of our joint working. We have many international business opportunities to work with our counterparts in the Republic of Ireland, and I will take it up with them as well.

[Jim Allister (North Antrim) (TUV)]

May I associate myself with the condolences to the widow and family of the late Ken Reid? The family are constituents of mine in North Antrim, and Ken was such a part of the political architecture.

On innovation, there is no greater trailblazer in Northern Ireland than Wrightbus in my constituency, which has really set the pace on hydrogen. How far have the Government invested in advancing that, and in ensuring that public funds, when they are needed, are there to build the hydrogen infrastructure that is so key to advancing that matter?

[Fleur Anderson]

I thank the hon. and learned Member for rightly singing the praises of Wrightbus. The transition to net zero presents huge opportunities, as he has identified, for businesses like Wrightbus in Ballymena. It is producing 1,000 low-carbon buses, securing 500 jobs in its factory and creating 1,500 additional jobs across the UK supply chain. This shows that Northern Ireland is leading the way, and we will continue to work on such opportunities through our industrial strategy.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Fleur Anderson and Jim Allister

Wednesday 23rd October 2024 Commons Chamber

[Fleur Anderson]

We are not the only Ministers who came into office three months ago to have faced all sorts of decisions that should have been taken by the previous Government. We have taken up those decisions on parcels and on every aspect that the right hon. Member mentions. He is right to raise them, because we do need to work on them to ensure that we protect the UK internal market and that we create the best possible regime for business.

[Jim Allister (North Antrim) (TUV)]

3. What assessment he has made with Cabinet colleagues of the potential impact of the Windsor Framework (Non-Commercial Movement of Pet Animals) Regulations 2024 on people travelling with pets from Great Britain to Northern Ireland.

Northern Ireland Veterans Commissioner

Debate between Fleur Anderson and Jim Allister

Tuesday 15th October 2024 Westminster Hall

[Fleur Anderson]

Thank you, Mr Dowd. I thank the right hon. Member for his intervention. In fact, my next sentence was going to be one that will please him greatly, I think. I was about to say: which is why we have moved very quickly to advertise the position of the Northern Ireland Veterans Commissioner. In fact it will be advertised this week, with all the details available. This debate is therefore extremely timely and can serve as a very long job advertisement for the position. I hope that many people who listen to this debate, or read it in Hansard, will consider applying for this position. It is such an important position and one on which we have moved extremely quickly as a Government, demonstrating our commitment to supporting veterans.

[Jim Allister]

Will the Minister give way?

[Fleur Anderson]

If I keep giving way, I will not have enough time to speak, so I think I will continue.

Mr Kinahan was appointed by the previous Government, which established the role of the Northern Ireland Veterans Commissioner. I join the Secretary of State in expressing my gratitude for Mr Kinahan’s dedicated work over the last four years on behalf of veterans and their families living in Northern Ireland. As has been said, it was one of the commitments made as part of the New Decade, New Approach political agreement in January 2020, which helped to restore devolved Government in Northern Ireland.

As set out in New Decade, New Approach, the commissioner’s role was

“to act as an independent point of contact to support and enhance outcomes for veterans in Northern Ireland.”

Danny Kinahan, himself a veteran and subsequently an elected representative in Northern Ireland, took up the role on 1 September 2020. Over the last four years the commissioner and his team have worked to deliver that important support for veterans in Northern Ireland. Their work conducting direct veteran engagements and veteran information roadshows across Northern Ireland has been particularly valuable, as has their establishment of a veterans mental health committee, involving a number of key mental health service providers for veterans.

The commissioner was also involved in encouraging collaborative working with the veterans sector, working closely with veterans commissioners in Scotland and Wales, with regimental associations and with the voluntary sector. He also sought to ensure that Northern Ireland veterans’ views were heard in my Department and across Whitehall with regard to the Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Act 2023 and the development of the Independent Commission on Information Recovery and Reconciliation.

In delivering its role, the Northern Ireland Veterans Commissioner’s Office works closely with a range of local statutory and non-statutory stakeholders. Previously that included the Veterans Support Office, which was formed in 2018 to develop capacity to deliver the armed forces covenant in Northern Ireland and played a role in co-ordinating and signposting to charity provision. It closed in June this year, as the way that support for veterans is provided in Northern Ireland continues to evolve.

Many of the functions of the Veterans Support Office had over time been replicated by other organisations or superseded by other initiatives. That includes the establishment of the Veterans Commissioner’s Office, which now plays a leading role in communicating with and championing the needs of veterans resident in Northern Ireland, as well as building connections with partners delivering support to veterans across Northern Ireland.

The Office for Veterans’ Affairs has additionally created a new role, based in Belfast, to provide dedicated strategic co-ordination of organisations, programmes and initiatives that support veterans’ wellbeing in Northern Ireland. That post will become operational imminently and is a post that is evolving to continue to support veterans.

This is a Government of service that will always stand up for those who have served our country. My hon. Friend and colleague the Minister for Veterans and People is leading work across Government and with civil society to ensure that our veterans and their families get access to the health, housing, employment and other support that they need, wherever they reside in the United Kingdom. In Northern Ireland specifically, the specialist statutory welfare body for veterans, the Veterans Welfare Service, provides information and practical support to veterans and their families, including timely physiotherapy and psychological therapies to eligible veterans.

The £500,000 Defence Medical Welfare Service pilot additionally supports veterans’ health and wellbeing in Northern Ireland and provides insight that will improve our understanding of veterans’ health needs. Veterans in need of housing advice, meanwhile, can contact the Government’s single housing support pathway, Operation FORTITUDE, where a dedicated team of advisers works to assist veterans across the UK.

The armed forces covenant continues to be a key Government priority, with a commitment to fully implement the covenant in law. It ensures that the armed forces community is treated fairly across the UK, including in Northern Ireland, although its delivery is approached differently there due to Northern Ireland’s unique historical and political circumstances.

As the hon. Member for South Antrim mentioned, at the beginning of September the Northern Ireland Veterans Commissioner met the Secretary of State, who accepted his resignation. Mr Kinahan explained his reasoning, and it has been reiterated publicly. I join the Secretary of State in expressing my gratitude for Mr Kinahan’s dedicated work. I am delighted that we started work immediately on the appointment of the new Veterans Commissioner—I hope that will begin tomorrow, but maybe later this week.

The appointment of the new Northern Ireland Veterans Commissioner will be made on merit by the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, following open and transparent process, which includes public advertising and independent assessment. Again, I encourage all suitably experienced people to apply for this important role. In the meantime, the Northern Ireland Veterans Commissioner’s Office has engaged and will continue to engage with veterans, signposting them to support, including while the new Veterans Commissioner is appointed. Indeed, I believe the office was involved in a successful event last month at Parliament Buildings in Belfast, which recognised and celebrated Northern Ireland veterans’ service in Iraq and Afghanistan, and which was sponsored by the hon. Gentleman’s party colleague, Lord Elliott.

In addition, the Government are committed to continuing to support veterans in Northern Ireland through the Veterans Welfare Service, which has field teams across Northern Ireland linked in with various partner organisations and statutory bodies, and with the different initiatives funded via the Armed Forces Covenant Fund Trust. That includes the Veterans’ Places, Pathways and People programme, known as the Veterans’ Pathway in Northern Ireland, which is led by the charity Brooke House and does excellent work on improving the co-ordination of mental health support to veterans among partner organisations locally. The charity Beyond the Battlefield was also awarded £100,000 in March 2024 to provide wraparound services for veterans in Northern Ireland who are homeless or at risk of homelessness.

I have listened carefully to the points the hon. Gentleman made about the basis for the role, including the ability to communicate, with veterans, health support and the other issues. I am pleased that he has raised those, and I am sure they will be read by any applicants for the role and by the future Veterans Commissioner once they are appointed.

In conclusion, I thank the hon. Gentleman for securing this important debate. The role of the Northern Ireland Veterans Commissioner is an important element of the support provided to veterans across a wide range of areas that I have already detailed, in recognition of their service to our country. Let me once again encourage everyone who is suitably experienced to apply for the post, and reiterate that this Government recognise the dedicated service of all our veterans and are committed to supporting the veteran community across the whole of the United Kingdom. This is a Government of service that will always stand up for those who have served our country, and we will continue to do so.

Question put and agreed to.