Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Second sitting)

Euan Stainbank Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 7th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Tristan Osborne (Chatham and Aylesford) (Lab)]

Q My first question is on the enforcement element. We have had some correspondence and feedback that the £200 level is too low. I wonder whether councils or the Local Government Association have a view on the appropriate level. Conversely, if the level were too high, it would potentially damage high streets by loss of trade and shops closing because of fear. Is there a worry in the local government community that we could see high street shops closing as a result of enforcement? Again, those are some of the comments coming out of the correspondence we have received.

David Fothergill: I will take the fines element first and then talk about the cost of licensing for those retailers. A fine of £200 is quite a low figure. I think it was £100 previously, so it has been increased. If you pay within 10 days, it goes from £200 to £100. If you sell 40 vapes in one day, you have paid your fine. Some retailers—very few, because the vast majority are scrupulous—will take the view that they could sell more vapes to under-age people and those they should not be selling to, and pay that £100 fine within 10 days. So yes, we view it as too low. We would like to see a review brought in within a year to see whether it should be increased.

If we can align the cost of licensing fees with alcohol licensing, that would enable us to find a way to reduce the burden, because the vast majority of people who are selling alcohol are also selling tobacco. We need to work with our businesses to reduce the cost of applying for those licences, which is why we need the consultation period over the next few months, before we bring in legislation, to ensure that we have worked with our retailers, the public and our communities in order to deliver a scheme that actually works.

[Euan Stainbank (Falkirk) (Lab)]

Q Do you believe that the generational smoking ban might cause an increase in the use of other nicotine products such as vapes, smoke-free tobacco or even illicit products?

Alison Challenger: We are ultimately trying to reduce the harm caused by smoking—that is the big killer, and we really would not want to lose sight of that. The Bill also brings in elements around the second-hand smoke agenda. It is important to recognise that there are many vulnerable people who would potentially be harmed by breathing in second-hand smoke, so we welcome the fact that the Bill includes that element. As for whether it will increase vaping, it is really hard to know at the moment how that will work out. Potentially more people might switch to vaping, but ultimately, the Bill brings in a progressive approach to taking out smoking tobacco, which is to be welcomed.

[Dr Danny Chambers (Winchester) (LD)]

Q You might not have the answer here, but do you have a rough estimate of what it costs the NHS financially to deal with passive smoking and second-hand smoking every year?

Alison Challenger: I do not have the actual figure, but it is significant. One of the early benefits of the Bill going through will be the impact on children, particularly around asthma. Obviously, second-hand smoke will be exacerbating some of those respiratory illnesses, particularly for children. There is a considerable burden on the NHS as a result of breathing in second-hand smoke. We must also consider those who have cardiovascular disease and those who have existing respiratory illness. It is not always evident that somebody is vulnerable, so it is really important that the measures in the Bill serve to protect those who are vulnerable from inhaling second- hand smoke.

--- Later in debate ---

[Tristan Osborne]

Q I have two questions. First, on digital taxation, I understand that under the previous Government, in March, vapes were to become digitally registered—with a digital tax—which should make it easier to identify fraud and misaligned products effectively. Is there any commentary around the implementation of that? Have you seen that come forward? Are you working with HMRC on the sort of digital tax regime around that? Do you think that that is important, in your job, to reduce fraudulent products?

Secondly, in the United States, you can have products with up to 60 mg-worth of nicotine; that is a standard product in the United States. In the UK, it is 20 mg, or significantly less. Is there an awareness within trading standards of just how much we are potentially out of kilter with some of the key markets that we are aligned to? Our limit is significantly lower than those of other major economies, so do you think that we might therefore have a problem with products perhaps coming in from other sources that are not the same as tobacco? Is that a concern for your Department?

Lord Michael Bichard: I will pass that one to Wendy, if it is not unfair. On the first point, you are right that we think that that is going to make regulation enforcement easier but I will have to leave the second question to Wendy, I am afraid.

Wendy Martin: Just to reinforce Michael’s point around the digital stamps, I am not close to this myself, but I know that trading standards colleagues who are operational experts in this field are working in response to the various HMRC consultations about the implementation of excise and tax stamps, and those sorts of things. I know those conversations are happening, and I think the view is that that kind of simple identification is really important for trading standards.

In terms of the 60 mg versus 20 mg, I am afraid I do not have any detailed knowledge of that personally, but I would certainly anticipate that those kinds of challenges and issues would be built into the guidance and information being put to officers and any planned training programmes once we know the final form of the Bill, the excise duty and all the other changes coming over the next few years as the Bill and other legislation progress. I am sorry that I do not have a detailed answer.

Lord Michael Bichard: But we can get it for you.

[Euan Stainbank]

Q Do you see any challenges in the enforcement of the advertising and display of vapes, in shops especially—in what we would class as more generic stores, rather than bespoke venues?

Lord Michael Bichard: I do not want to sound complacent, because I am not. But this is something we are used to doing, so we do not see that as a major issue or a major problem. That is what we do.

[Euan Stainbank]

Q Thank you. My second question digs into the illicit online vape market that you referred to. Is the issue more the structure of enforcement that you were discussing, or do you have any concern about online retailers’ age gating policies?

Lord Michael Bichard: No, the point I was making was about enforcement.

Wendy Martin: To add to that, as part of the programme that DHSC has been funding for the last 18 months, we tested out a number of issues, and one was online under-age sales. I think we tested 312 purchases, and there was a 10% failure rate. That was significantly lower than premises-based sales. There was a lot in the platform’s corporate website design to try to ask the right questions and kick purchasers out. It is very much about who does it and who takes responsibility, rather than a major problem in itself.

We also work quite closely with the Advertising Standards Authority, and it does a lot around broadcast and published media, and website compliance and claims. That is quite a well-established mechanism for enforcement. It is about the structure of enforcement, as you have rightly identified.

Lord Michael Bichard: It is probably worth pointing out—it does not relate to the online point—that I said earlier that last year we carried out 4,000 test purchases, and 26% of those were failures. Compared to the 10% online, it is significantly higher. This is a very practical point, but some of the other changes that are going to happen will make it easier for us to do test purchasing. At the present moment, we can only use children or young people, so we have issues of safeguarding and we can only do it at certain times of the day. It should become easier, in that sense, for us to enforce the legislation.

[Mary Kelly Foy]

Q We heard from a previous witness that young people say that most of the advertising for vapes is in the shops. The Bill will bring in powers to regulate vapes, and that includes advertising. How do you envisage that the ban on advertising will be enforced on the high street, locally and in small shops?

Lord Michael Bichard: It will be enforced in the same way we enforce it for tobacco and other things. This is not new. Trading standards officers employed by local authorities are constantly visiting premises, and they will therefore deal with any offences that are being committed. They also have their own local intelligence networks. We cannot afford, because we do not have enough staff, to just have a random system where we pop in every now and then. We depend on people giving us intelligence. Some of those people are members of the public, and some are from other agencies. We try to target what we do. When you visit a shop—there are something like 60,000 outlets—you can see whether the current legislation, or future legislation, is being implemented. We can take action against the retailer if it is not.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sadik Al-Hassan]

Q The only thing I would say to that is I can go into a small Tesco and it sells different things from the other small Tescos.

Inga Becker-Hansen: Precisely. But then it should be up to the business or the retailer to decide that strategy for themselves rather than it being implemented.

[Euan Stainbank]

Q Do you believe the measures in the Bill,such as restrictions on advertisement, display and flavours, will prevent e-cigarettes from appealing to children?

Inga Becker-Hansen: It is difficult for the BRC to comment on that, given that we are not public health experts or behavioural economics experts. I would therefore ask that you confirm that with public health experts, rather than the BRC.

[Euan Stainbank]

Q Could you articulate some of the challenges that the BRC may face with the restrictions on advertisement, display and flavours?

Inga Becker-Hansen: Some of the challenges with the restrictions on advertising will be at the point of sale of products for some retailers. There is also a query from retailers about how recycling schemes for vapes can be implemented if they cannot be advertised, and about how the Bill and the Government can support recycling initiatives alongside the reduction in advertising of vapes. Retailers appreciate the need to restrict advertising. Again, there is this idea of creating a level playing field among all retailers, rather than focusing on specific ones.

[Euan Stainbank]

Q It is clear that good retailers have an interest in making sure age verification schemes are followed. At the moment, there is clearly a concern about child vaping. I am obviously not asking you to comment from a public health angle, but do you think the problem of child vape access is coming predominantly from proxy sales—somebody over the age of 18 purchasing a vape, a tobacco product or another nicotine product and giving it to someone under the age of 18—or from under-age sales?

Inga Becker-Hansen: Again, I do not have specific details, so I cannot comment. I am happy to follow up in writing.

--- Later in debate ---

[Tristan Osborne]

Q My question is about price. In this Bill, we are looking to ban disposable vapes, which, as a former teacher myself, I used to see in toilet bowls and other exciting locations in secondary schools, sadly. Do you think that that is going to have a major impact in the form of kids perhaps not being able to afford these products, and so we will see a reduction? Do you think that the price differential is going to be an important factor?

Matthew Shanks: Yes, but not on its own. It would help, but people will find a way to get something if they want it—we know that. The price hike without the education might increase other instances of unpleasantness between people, such as bullying, bribing, theft and so on. It has to come alongside education. The whole message needs to be that vaping is not something for children to engage in. It is something to help people to stop smoking. That is my view and the view of educators.

[Euan Stainbank]

Q I have a quick question about flavours and colourings. I am trying to understand the predominant issue with reusable vapes. I am quite surprised to hear that refillable vapes are not an issue in schools. Could you expand on that?

Matthew Shanks: It is not that they are not an issue—

[Euan Stainbank]

I meant that I was pretty surprised that they are such a predominant issue. I would have presumed that disposable vapes were the predominant issue.

Matthew Shanks: Oh yes, they are a huge issue.

[Euan Stainbank]

Q Can you expand on whether those are more accessed in the classroom through proxy sales, such as a parent purchasing it for them, or whether you are seeing refillable vapes purchased to the same degree as disposables out in the community?

Matthew Shanks: The reason disposable, single-use vapes are more popular is that there is less to carry, so it is easier to secrete, hide and get rid of. Refillable vapes are fiddly to fill up, for a start. That is something that is not appealing, if you do not have that speed—I am conjecturing here around it. However, the flavours and colours are certainly something that influences and impacts children using vapes. As I say, I think the size of the single-use, disposable vapes is an issue. We have said, for example, that single-use vapes are banned anywhere on site, which means that parents cannot bring them in as well. What we have then seen in some of our schools is more children bringing in their parents’ vapes, and when you catch them with those, that brings conflict in. I was not trying to imply that people were not still using them, we just cannot necessarily know.

[Euan Stainbank]

Q I completely recognise that and I understand the issues. My final question is around your assertion that there should be packaging similar to cigarettes. Do you believe that plain packaging would be an appropriate balance, considering that it may potentially deter people?

Matthew Shanks: At the moment I would take anything that is not coloured and does not make it look like it is candy, to be honest, in the American version. They are like sweets, and when you walk in to shops, they are in your face with the way they are placed. They are not behind a screen shutter. Yes, the health benefits are not known in the same way, but I would like to see a move towards that for packaging. I would welcome anything that tells children that this is not something that is safe or recreational or a reward, and it will not help them to have a better life or to study better within school because it relaxes them—all those things.

[Euan Stainbank]

Q I think you have come back to my initial point about refillable vapes and a distinction between the way they are displayed in shops and how disposables are displayed. I am severely concerned that children are being presented with a wall of candy, but I see that being more predominantly disposable vapes—or highlighter pens, as they were described.

Matthew Shanks: No, with the refillable ones it is the way that the flavours are displayed, as well. It is not just the disposable vapes; it is all vaping. You can go into a shop with a refillable and buy four different flavours in four different colours to refill at a different time, and you all have a different toke of a different type of flavouring. That is exciting and different, because it is a reward and it is pleasant and it can help you to be calm.

[The Chair]

I thank Matthew Shanks for his evidence today. It has been very interesting and stimulating for those of us who do not know much about vapes. I am sure we will take a lot of what he said into consideration in our deliberations.

Examination of Witness

Dr Laura Squire OBE gave evidence.