Intellectual Property (Hargreaves Report)

Eric Joyce Excerpts

Thursday 7th July 2011 Westminster Hall

[Eric Joyce (Falkirk) (Lab)]

I apologise for not being here at the start of the debate, Mr Chope. I was at another event, which I shall mention briefly in a moment.

I congratulate the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart)—his constituency was the place of my birth—on securing the debate, which is incredibly timely. He has committed himself to this subject for some time, and he regularly makes important contributions, as have many others here today.

Before coming here, I was chatting to Prime Minister Odinga of Kenya, and we spoke about this very matter. In the developing world, mobiles are being used much more and new services are becoming available. Those countries are looking to us to see how we deal with the emerging issues, and they are likely to follow the same principles, tenets or philosophical underpinnings, if that does not sound too grand. It is very much a current issue in Kenya—aside from piracy of the other type, which he is also particularly keen to address. These issues are at the forefront for countries in the developing world, especially in countries such as Rwanda. That country has mobile coverage across the country—it is better than in London. It also has fibre-optic cable, surprisingly good services and lots of new possibilities for creators. We must not forget that what we say now will have a powerful influence on people across the world, particularly those in the developing world.

I listened to the hon. Member for Northampton South (Mr Binley) with great interest. I thought that he struck exactly the right balance. On such matters, from the Digital Economy Act 2010 to the Hargreaves report, there tends to be a bit of polarisation, with the creators on one side and the distributors on the other. It is a false dichotomy, because one could easily argue that record labels are both creators and distributors. We tend falsely to put people in particular boxes. The hon. Gentleman was absolutely right to point out, as Hargreaves did, that our copyright law is elderly. It was intended for an entirely different purpose from how it is used today, and the way that people live now—I wish that I could remember exactly what he said, so I paraphrase—is very different from what the copyright law assumes.

The review is timely. Although no study undertaken on behalf of the Government, or of anyone else, is perfect, Hargreaves suggests some intelligent incremental steps. In broad terms, I think that we should support it. I listened carefully to the hon. Member for Hove (Mike Weatherley), and I completely understand his concerns. He is a champion of creators, and I do not pooh-pooh the important concerns that he expressed. However, it is important to realise that Hargreaves has attempted to pull together two disparate positions and has created a reasonably consensual outcome, which is difficult. When the Minister, and more significantly the Government, decide what to do, I hope that the changes to corporate law will reflect the general spirit of what Hargreaves has been trying to achieve.

We all agree with the hon. Member for Hove on format shifting—it is common sense that we should do something about it. Most people—probably most of us—have format shifted without realising that it was unlawful. That is a point of some consensus. For my own part, however, when I listen to debates on this subject, I still get the sense that some people are defending one position and others are defending a position on the other side. However, when we to talk to people in the industry, we find much more intelligent discussion and debate.

If we talk to record labels, we hear something different from what is said by the BPI. Much as I love, respect and admire the BPI—this is not to say that we should give in wholesale to what we have already heard happens in China—record labels will say, “Well, three or four years down the line things will be shifting a little bit; business models will shift a little bit.”

At the centre of Hargreaves is the recognition that creatives not only create the things they do, but create new solutions to problems. The hon. Member for Solihull (Lorely Burt) mentioned small and medium-sized businesses. Small software companies are less concerned about patenting and are more interested in keeping people with good ideas. They are sometimes more reluctant to patent specific things, because it can give away their secrets, but the secret in parts of the software industry is hanging on to those clever creative minds. It is much like the House of Commons.

I will briefly jump to the digital copyright exchange, which is potentially contentious. It looks like a common-sense idea—it is a common-sense idea—but how will it work? As soon as the recommendation is made, people in different industries will say, “This looks fine, but what is the meat of it? How should it work?”

One line that I have not heard mentioned—it may have been mentioned before I arrived—which one hears reflected outside this place is the almost theological point that when someone creates something it is theirs for good and theirs to control. Some would say that that is not the case and that, as the hon. Member for Northampton South said about the Chinese view of knowledge, it is out there for people to use and manipulate. We should certainly give the benefit to the original creators. At the extreme, one way to interpret the possible function of the digital copyright exchange is that it should be compulsory, because if the creation is not registered, the creator will not receive the cash, which would be tough on the creators. On the other hand, I am not completely convinced that those who create things should necessarily be able to control them.

[Damian Collins]

One observation from my time in the advertising industry, based on the hon. Gentleman’s remarks, is that that could work against younger creative people. They do not have experience of the industry or the muscle to demand a higher price for their work at the initial point of sale and will therefore lose control of it for the future. Does the hon. Gentleman share that concern?

[Eric Joyce]

I absolutely agree. Indeed, the advertising industry is one of our more successful creative industries. I know a number of people who work in it or who have done so. The hon. Gentleman said earlier that the advertising industry often takes something that looks like an original idea from elsewhere, uses it imaginatively and creates something new, adding value to it.

The hon. Gentleman said something about orphan works that struck me; I had not reflected on the matter before. I do not have a great problem with orphan works. I was lobbied on the subject by photographers during the passage of the 2010 Act. It could be the case that something has been forgotten by the creator and is long-gone but is used in an advertising campaign, such as that famous kiss picture by Robert Doisneau. Such things could be completely forgotten, but if they are used in advertising campaigns and seen all over the place, the creator will not benefit from it. I see the logic of revisiting that aspect.

[Damian Collins]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way again. I might be wrong, but I cast my mind back to the 1997 general election campaign and the famous demonised poster of Tony Blair. The original photograph was an orphan work.

[Eric Joyce]

That is absolutely fascinating. I think Tony Blair might have put the original up in one of his many houses. Perhaps he has put one up in each. I will not continue to wax rhapsodic, as I was late for the start of the debate.

Let me turn briefly to the internet service providers. There are hundreds of thousands of ISPs, many of which are small and fill a niche. In the UK, there are lots of ISPs serving local geographical areas. That may seem counter-intuitive, but that is the way it is. They provide a good service in their niche market. I am not saying, “Yah-boo sucks to all the creators and the ISPs are all fabulous.” However, we tend to forget that ISPs have to invest a great deal of money in infrastructure. We all want superfast broadband, but if we are not careful we could end up loading costs on to ISPs and slow down the superfast future that we all want. It is not the case that Google commands everybody and fair use will be next. As the hon. Member for Hove has said, fair use has essentially been rejected by Hargreaves, but I am sure that that will not happen in the UK. I understand that it was primarily a legal argument that did not fit terribly well into the European legal structure.

Let me just blow the trumpet for ISPs. The sector is not terribly big or sexy, and we understandably tend to speak a lot about our success in the music industry. However, the corporate debate goes much wider than the music industry. For instance, it involves software, as I have mentioned. There are all sorts of creative responses in the movie industry. We can see release dates being brought closer together, so that people are less likely to pirate. Often, if new technological solutions, creative ideas or new ways of selling a product are found, problems can be solved.

In his report, Hargreaves emphasises that enforcement and education have a limited effect. Instead, he says we need to find new ways of facilitating new creative ideas. He recommends the creation of a digital copyright exchange. I am not sure exactly how it will work and do not think that it will necessarily involve compulsion, but there are some interesting debates around it. The report states:

“Government should pursue an integrated approach based upon enforcement, education and, crucially, measures to strengthen and grow legitimate markets in copyright and other IP protected fields.”

That goes to the heart of what Hargreaves has tried to do. It is not perfect, but it recognises that we can make incremental steps at this stage. I hope that the idea does not get knocked off track for some technical reason that we cannot get round.

Hon. Members spoke at length with Professor Hargreaves, who made himself and his team available to them. I deduce that he and his team are a little concerned that the whole thing will be knocked off track by heavy lobbying. The hon. Member for Northampton South perfectly captured the problem. We recognise that we need to change; we accept what Hargreaves recommends as sound common sense; and we can get the copyright laws that we need not only now but for things that might be coming along in the future.

[Dr Coffey]

I hear what the hon. Gentleman has said about Professor Hargreaves and about his concern that everything might be put to one side. As my hon. Friend the Member for Solihull (Lorely Burt) said earlier, if he had broadened the panel to include not only academics and intellectual property officers but people from the industry, he might have had a more willing audience.

[Eric Joyce]

The hon. Lady makes a good point. I am always up for broadening the membership of panels. I did not select the panel. She may well be right. I do not deny that it was a tightly focused group. We all have small and medium-sized businesses in our communities, and we all get lobbied by the Federation of Small Businesses. I often get lobbied by small businesses that say that the corporate holders are too aggressive in pursuing their rights and interests. I am not sure what I feel about that, but the hon. Lady is right in what she says.

In conclusion—I was almost at my peroration before the hon. Lady intervened—Professor Hargreaves has produced a pretty good piece of work. It is not perfect, but it recommends good incremental steps forward. We need to reflect on the fact that ISPs are being relied on to contribute greatly to the roll-out of superfast broadband. We all want that. It is coming. When is it going to come? We will see what it looks like when it comes. This report is a small but significant part of the chain.