Overseas Operations (Service Personnel and Veterans) Bill (First sitting)

Emma Lewell-Buck Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee Debate: 1st sitting: House of Commons
Tuesday 6th October 2020 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

I suggest that we might logistically arrange for people who do want to ask questions, or anticipate asking questions, to be at the table where they would have access to a microphone. It makes it so much easier. Emma Lewell-Buck, I call on you to start the proceedings.

[Mrs Emma Lewell-Buck (South Shields) (Lab)]

Q Hello, Hilary, good morning. My first question is: do you think that it makes sound legal sense to gather changes to criminal and civil law together in the same Bill?

Hilary Meredith: No, I do not, and that is one of my issues with the Bill—that it mixes civil and criminal law together.

[Mrs Lewell-Buck]

Q Why is that? What pitfalls do you envisage should the Bill go through unchanged and become an Act of Parliament?

Hilary Meredith: One of the issues with the Bill is that we need to look backward to find out how we got into the present situation, before we can cure it. Most of the criminal allegations arose out of civil proceedings by Iraqi foreign claimants against the Ministry of Defence. Great caution needs to be taken when criminal allegations arise out of a compensation cheque carrot being dangled. For that reason alone there needs to be a separation with the two—criminal and civil law.

[Mrs Lewell-Buck]

Q Thank you for that. Does the Bill do anything for existing veterans and service personnel who have been dragged through repeated investigations?

Hilary Meredith: I think that leads on to it: because many of the criminal allegations arose out of a civil compensation claim, great caution should have been exercised. I cannot believe that extra care was not taken, and under those circumstances I can quite see there should be a presumption against guilt. It was not helped by the Ministry of Defence then paying cash to civilians in Iraq by way of compensation, which almost indicated guilt. That led on to the criminal prosecutions.

[Mrs Lewell-Buck]

Q Is five years the right period for a cut-off? Should it be seven, three, or some other number?

Hilary Meredith: I am against any cut-off, to be honest. I think the reason why the cases became historic is not the date of the accusation—any of the criminal accusations under human rights law, for example, came within 12 months of the incident taking place. It was the prolonged procedure that was bungled afterwards that made those cases historic. It is the procedure and investigation in the UK that need to be reviewed and overhauled, and not necessarily a time limit placed on criminal or civil prosecutions.

Also under that heading, I have an issue with the longstop applying to civil cases where personnel are overseas on operations and military personnel have a longstop placed on their claims as well. I understand that that has been put in on a equitable basis, so that if there is a longstop for a criminal prosecution, it also has to apply to civil law, but I am not sure about that.

[Mrs Lewell-Buck]

Q Do you expect more prosecutions of UK armed forces personnel and veterans in the International Criminal Court?

Hilary Meredith: The answer to that is that I do not actually know. I think that lawfare instance came mainly from one or two lawyers. Phil Shiner was a one-off. He brought civil claims for compensation first, and as a result of that the prosecutions followed. If we had a robust procedure for investigating those cases and, for example, an independent advocate who has the back of the individual member of the armed forces and supports them, many of those cases would not have been advanced to the point that they were, with the subsequent criminal allegations.

[Mrs Lewell-Buck]

Thank you, Chair—I will leave it there so others can come in.

[The Chair]

Thank you for observing the microphone requirement. I call Stuart Anderson.