Childcare Bill [Lords]

Debate between Emily Thornberry and Baroness Morgan of Cotes

Wednesday 25th November 2015 Commons Chamber

[Nicky Morgan]

My hon. Friend has raised an important point. We are, of course, doubling the entitlement to free childcare for two-year-olds, which originally applied to 20% who were the most disadvantaged, and now applies to 40%. The sector responded by creating an additional 230,000 places over the last Parliament. It has already risen to the challenge, and will do so again. I shall go on to say something about the way in which families will respond to the entitlement and how they will use the additional hours—I am sure that other Members will speak about that as well—but we know that there is already spare capacity in the system.

[Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) (Lab)]

The right hon. Lady will correct me if my reading of the Blue Book is wrong, but I understand that the maximum amount will be £5,000 per child. If that applies only to term-time, we are talking about 30 hours times 38—1,140 hours—which, as things stand, means a maximum of £4.38 per hour. In my constituency, where childcare costs more than £9 an hour, that will not be enough to pay for it.

[Nicky Morgan]

I shall go on to talk about the hourly rate. I shall be publishing the findings of the funding rate review, but as part of the funding formula review, we want to ensure that as much money as possible goes to the front line.

[Nicky Morgan]

I will come on to that, but my hon. Friend is absolutely right. As I have said, we want as much money as possible to go to the frontline, and that will be one of the issues that we will raise as part of the funding formula review.

[Emily Thornberry]

Will the Secretary of State give way?

[Nicky Morgan]

I am going to make some progress. I think the hon. Lady will want to hear what I say about rates. She may want to ask a further question after that.

The hon. Member for Manchester Central (Lucy Powell) is on record as saying that she is pleased to see that the Government are offering more support for early years, and wants to see our policies turned into reality. Today, she has the chance to demonstrate her support by joining us in the Lobby to support the Bill. It appears that she will be doing that, and I welcome the support of the Labour party.

Questions were raised in the other place about why the Bill was introduced so early. My response to that is “Why would we wait?” It is clear from the interest expressed by Members today, and from the reaction of our constituents, how successful and important the existing 15-hours offer is in supporting better outcomes for children. As the OECD’s latest “Education at a Glance” study reminds us, the United Kingdom is one of 13 OECD countries in which more than 90% of children aged three are enrolled in pre-primary settings, and pupils who each received one year of pre-primary education in the United Kingdom perform better at the age of 15 than their peers who did not.

We also know that the extension of free childcare is something that working parents want, so instead of waiting, we committed ourselves to implementing the extended offer early in some areas, from September 2016. We know that that is what parents want because we have listened to them. Over the summer, my Department consulted nearly 20,000 members of the public and 750 employers. Those who took part told us that they wanted 30 hours of free childcare and that the increase in hours would support their work choices. I heard that myself on a visit to Rolls-Royce in August with the Under-Secretary of State for Education, my hon. Friend the Member for East Surrey (Mr Gyimah), who has responsibility for childcare and education. Employees talked to us about their childcare decisions and what they are looking for from the entitlement to 30 hours of free childcare. It was a pleasure for us to meet them and I thank them for sharing their views. They were very clear that they want more flexibility and choice in how they can access childcare.

I am determined to ensure that high-quality, affordable childcare is available to those parents, so that pressure is taken off their household budgets, and so they are more financially secure and better able to plan for their future. I am confident that we have a childcare sector that will deliver. The childcare market is flourishing: it has grown by 230,000 places since 2009.

--- Later in debate ---

[Nicky Morgan]

I am going to make some progress on this paragraph and then I will come back to the hon. Lady.

The increase in funding includes nearly £300 million for a significant uplift to the rate paid for the two, three and four-year-old entitlements. That will deliver a new national average funding rate paid to providers. Both rates will increase by at least 30p per hour. For three and four-year-olds, the new average rate will be £4.88, including the early years pupil premium and the rate for two-year olds will be £5.39. With that increase we have set the level of funding that providers need to deliver high-quality childcare, while at the same time providing good value to the taxpayer. We will also consult on a package of reforms to improve efficiency in the sector and further ensure value for money. I can also confirm that the early years pupil premium will not change and is worth £50 million in 2015-16, helping to ensure that three and four-year-olds from the most disadvantaged backgrounds have the best start in life.

The increase in the funding rate is supported by the robust review of the cost of childcare carried out over the last six months. Today that review is being published and will be made available in the Library of the House. I thank those who responded to the call for evidence as part of the review, as well as those who were involved in attending round table discussions across the country.The participation and engagement of organisations including the Pre-school Learning Alliance, the National Day Nurseries Association, the Professional Association for Childcare and Early Years, the Independent Schools Council and other key partners, meant we were able fully to understand the concerns and arguments around the funding of the entitlement.

As the Chancellor has also announced, we are committed to ensuring that funding is allocated in the fairest way. Next year, we will consult on an early years national funding formula, which will give due consideration to funding for disadvantaged children and to special educational needs funding for the early years.

[Emily Thornberry]

I am sorry; I remain genuinely confused. I hear the Secretary of State talking about a fairer funding formula. In Islington, the rate is £9.40 per hour. Will money be taken from other boroughs to pay for the childcare there? Obviously, an amount less than £4.50 an hour will not be enough to pay for it. These are not my figures.

[Nicky Morgan]

I suggest that the hon. Lady look at the review, which is being published as I speak. The figure of £9 an hour is not one that we recognise. No such case has been made to us in the course of the review. As I have just set out, the average rate is going to go up to £4.88 for three and four-year-olds, and to £5.39 for two-year-olds. We are confident, based on the evidence we have gathered, that that increase will provide high-quality childcare for children in Islington and elsewhere in the country.

[Emily Thornberry]

rose—

[Nicky Morgan]

Let me just answer the hon. Lady’s other question. She asked about the funding formula review. That is about making sure that as much money as possible goes to the frontline. I hope she has also had a conversation with Islington council. The duty is on me, under this Bill, to procure the places, but the local authority’s role is to provide a sufficient number of places for families needing childcare and it must pass on as much of the money as it possibly can—we have already talked about top-slicing—so that the front-line providers get the money that the taxpayer is providing.

[Emily Thornberry]

As I understand it, the figure of £9.50 that I quoted was provided by the Daycare Trust. The Secretary of State really ought to be aware that there are boroughs, particularly in inner London, where the price of childcare is much more than £4.50 an hour. We simply will not be able to afford to provide childcare for the amount that is being announced today.

--- Later in debate ---

[Nicky Morgan]

First, the hon. Gentleman should be pleased the Conservative party is on the side of working people, as he will know that his own Front-Bench team are not at the moment—if he would like to join us, he would be very welcome. Secondly, when he was shadow Education Secretary at the general election, his party did not commit to increasing the funding for early years in the way we have done. We can, of course, have a wider debate about the schools budget, but that is not the subject for debate today. I just point out to him that not only have we committed to protecting the schools budget in real terms, but by the end of this Parliament the Department for Education’s resource budget will be higher than it was at the start. His policies would never have delivered that.

[Emily Thornberry]

rose—

[Nicky Morgan]

I will give way to the hon. Lady, for the last time.

[Emily Thornberry]

I have a number of questions, but I will just stick to the money. When Labour was promising 25 hours a week in term-time only, as opposed to 30 hours a week in term-time only, the Minister at the time told us it would cost £1.6 billion. Is not the Secretary of State’s problem that she is missing £1 billion? That is why she cannot cover childcare at its real cost.

[Nicky Morgan]

Yet again, I do not agree with the hon. Lady’s figures. The point is that she is missing the additional help we also giving to families through tax-free childcare and through universal credit, which net each other off. She needs to look at the funding review rate that has been published today, where she will see the response from those who are working in the sector regarding the rate they have been asking for and the reason the figures have been arrived at today. I have just mentioned them and they are an increase. She should also take note that we are going to be spending £1 billion more on childcare every year in the course of this Parliament. If she wants to be a member of the Committee, I am sure that she would be very welcome and that her Whips will ask her to do that.

Let me turn to eligibility for this childcare package. One of the key messages from parents during the consultation was a desire for a simpler system. We confirmed in the other place that eligibility for the 30-hour entitlement will align with tax-free childcare. As the Chancellor set out, parents will be able to access the 30-hour entitlement if they each work at least the equivalent of 16 hours per week at the national living wage—or national minimum wage for those aged under 25—including those who are self-employed. In the case of lone-parent households, the same threshold will apply. This makes it a significant offer of additional support and means that anyone earning more than £107 a week, at this year’s minimum wage rate, will be eligible.

As many parents and children will be able to benefit from both the extended entitlement and tax-free childcare, it makes sense that parents will be able to apply for both schemes through a joint online application being developed by Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs. This will provide a simple and straightforward way to access both schemes, saving parents and providers valuable time. The Government recognise that families are complex and that different circumstances need to be taken into account, so the additional free hours will be available where both parents are employed but one or both parents are temporarily away from the workplace—for example, on maternity or adoption leave. That will ensure continuity and will limit disruption for young children and providers. The additional free hours will also be available where one parent is employed but the other has substantial caring responsibilities or where one parent is disabled.

We are making a significant commitment to investing in the early years, but doing so at a time when we are facing difficult decisions across all spending areas. At the centre of these difficult decisions has been the belief that it is right for those with the broadest shoulders to bear the greatest burden. We therefore intend to introduce an income cap, whereby parents who earn more than £100,000 per annum will not be able to access the additional entitlement.

We want to support parents to make informed choices about what is right for them and their children. To do so, it is vital that parents have easy access to information about the childcare available in their area, including hours offered and cost, as well as suitability for disabled children. That is why, through the Bill, we have introduced a requirement on local authorities to publish information and advice for parents on childcare in their area. The childcare.co.uk digital app, which now allows parents to search for free childcare for two, three and four-year-olds based on where and when they need it, will make it even easier for parents to find out about high quality and flexible childcare places. That will mean that parents can access the information they need to find the childcare that is right for their child and that suits their family’s circumstances.

The message and the measures in this Bill are clear: the Conservative party is the party of working people and this Government are on the side of working parents. Through the passage of this Bill, we will fulfil our manifesto pledge to do more to help ease the pressure on many working families by supporting them with the costs of childcare. We are pushing forward with this legislation to get families that support as quickly as possible and it should be supported from all parts of the Chamber.

I look forward to hearing Members’ contributions, and I hope that the principles behind the Bill are ones that everyone in the House will support. The Under-Secretary of State for Education, my hon. Friend the Member for East Surrey (Mr Gyimah), who is responsible for childcare and education and I look forward to working with all Members on this Bill.

Equal Pay and the Gender Pay Gap

Debate between Emily Thornberry and Baroness Morgan of Cotes

Wednesday 1st July 2015 Commons Chamber

[Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State referred to alternative ways of dealing with the situation. When she conducts her review, will she take another look at the short-form questionnaire, which enables a woman who believes that she has been discriminated against to ask her employer for certain facts and figures before even going to a tribunal and taking legal action?

[Nicky Morgan]

The point of the review is to take account of questions of exactly that kind. It is being conducted by the Ministry of Justice, and I am sure that my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Women and Equalities and Family Justice, who is also a Minister in the MOJ, has heard what the hon. Lady has said.

Girls often do better than boys at school overall, but evidence shows that their subject choices have a direct impact on their future careers and earnings, and that that imbalance can feed directly into our labour market. A proportion of the gap is also due to differences in years of experience of full-time work, or the negative effect on wages of having previously worked part time or—as was mentioned earlier—having taken time out to look after a family. That highlights the important role that employers can play in supporting women in the middle phases of their working lives by providing effective talent management, facilitating access to affordable childcare, and championing flexible working.

We also know that the gender pay gap is higher for older women. For many of them one of the major challenges is keeping their skills updated, but for others the main challenge is the need to reduce their hours to accommodate increased responsibilities to care for children, grandchildren and ageing parents. Again, employers have a key role, namely to provide a supportive working environment that will enable them to get the best out of all their staff. That will include flexible working.

Health and Social Care (Re-committed) Bill

Debate between Emily Thornberry and Baroness Morgan of Cotes

Tuesday 6th September 2011 Commons Chamber

[Emily Thornberry]

Exactly; I am very grateful to my hon. Friend.

The Secretary of State, like the Minister of State, the right hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr Burns), is fond of quoting the Future Forum. I have a quote from Professor Steve Field that I hope will be of assistance to the House when it comes to discussion of the cap. He said in evidence to the Committee:

“if you opened the cap, it made you more likely to be under attack from EU law, competition and Monitor”.––[Official Report, Health and Social Care (Re-committed) Public Bill Committee, 28 June 2011; c. 14, Q24.]

That is one of the arguments that he used. If the Future Forum is concerned about this being another reason why we should not lift the cap, I hope that the Minister will at least listen to its arguments.

As we heard in Committee, a number of criticisms have been made on both sides of the House about the details of the cap and how it is implemented. Indeed, it is common ground that there ought to be some changes to it. We have no problem about changing and modifying the cap and making it more appropriate, but we do not understand why, just because the cap needs changing, it is simply being lifted completely.

A parallel can be drawn with the carbon emissions cap. If I were working in the Potteries in Staffordshire, I am sure that I would believe that the carbon emissions cap was unfair and went against my personal business. One would need to look at the cap and change it as appropriate in order to make it work properly; one would not get rid of it completely just because there are criticisms of it, unless one had another agenda.

The question is why on earth the Government are considering allowing as many private patients as wish to do so to go into our national health service at a time of crisis, pushing out national health service patients. [Interruption.] If the Minister believes that that is wrong, I will be interested to hear an intervention from him in which I hope he will be able to give us a complete assurance that that will not happen. The fact of the matter is that there are not the necessary safeguards. As we understand it, there will be absolutely no limit. We have no idea how foundation trusts are going to respond to the lifting of the cap. We do not know and neither, with great respect, does the Minister. Why is he allowing this great risk to be taken with our national health service? The clause needs to be looked at very carefully in this place, and I know that it will be looked at very carefully in another place.

[Nicky Morgan]

I am not sure whether the hon. Lady has seen a note from the Foundation Trust Network that was, I believe, circulated to all Members of the House and sets out six positive reasons why the private patient income cap has worked: it has allowed hospitals to build new units, to buy leading-edge technology, to extend mental health support, to offer fertility treatment, and to provide maternity services. There is also the fact that rental income is caught by the cap. There are some positive benefits in allowing private patients access to be treated by hospitals. In particular, at a time of financial crisis, bringing new technology into the NHS must be a good thing.

[Emily Thornberry]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady. I think that if we were to stop and walk away from party politics, we would be quite close on this matter. We do not have a problem with there being a cap; the problem is how it is implemented. I think that, deep down, she agrees with us. The difficulty is that her party wants to get rid of the cap completely, and that will have a completely different effect on the national health service. We are happy to sit down and talk to the agencies that will be affected and to make improvements in the working of the cap, but getting rid of it completely is behaving recklessly with our national health service.

[Nicky Morgan]

The misinformation and emotive language that has been used throughout the whole debate has been using patients at the heart of this. Everything we have heard so far on both sides of the House, perhaps prompted by the hon. Lady’s remarks, has been about how bringing in private patients is bad for the NHS. In fact there are some good aspects. I am pleased to hear that there can be some agreement between both sides of the House.

[Emily Thornberry]

That is why I have been relying on the Government’s impact assessment as perhaps the strongest part of my argument. I have also relied on what Professor Field has had to say. I would now like to turn to Baroness Williams, who wrote an article published on 4 September that I commend to the House, in which she says:

“One thing that remains…is the decision to lift the cap on private beds in foundation hospitals. Not only could that mean that many of our finest hospitals would gradually become private, it also means that inevitably foundation hospitals would be subject to European and British competition law.”

Many organisations and people agree with us on this, and that is why the House should pause and think about what we will be doing to the national health service if we accept this clause. I also pray in aid the Royal College of Nursing’s briefing, which Members who are closely following this debate will have read, in which it says that it is against the removal of the cap and does not believe that it will not have an effect on NHS patients’ access to health care. The BMA has said the same thing.

In essence, the argument is about whether we should have a cap or not. If the House votes tonight to lift the cap, our constituents will ask how it can be that their representative has voted for a clause that allows private patients to fill up the national health service hospital paid for by those constituents’ taxes so that they will be pushed out of it.