Employment and Trade Union Rights (Dismissal and Re-engagement) Bill

Baroness Laing of Elderslie Excerpts

Friday 22nd October 2021 Commons Chamber

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

Order. I am sure the whole House joins me in congratulating the hon. Gentleman on his newly-born grandson, and sends its congratulations to our former colleague, his father, on being a great-grandfather. [Hon. Members: “Hear, hear.”]

[Mark Pawsey]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Your remarks are most appreciated.

I want to participate in today’s debate for much the same reason as my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake). I ran a business before coming here and I am also a member of the BEIS Committee, which considered the dispute between British Gas and the GMB union.

I want to start off by considering the term “fire and rehire”. I think the term “fire and rehire” is emotive. It has not been helpful in a number of instances of use in this debate, which has been fairly consensual. I have to say that I think the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Bradford East (Imran Hussain), did not help the tone of today’s debate with his remarks. But there is an understanding that, where it is used as a negotiating tactic, fire and rehire is wrong and we do need to work hard to deal with that.

I want to look at the terms “dismissal” and “re-engagement”, because as an employer and someone who ran a business, the term “re-engagement” filled me with profound happiness: it was often a member of staff who had left my business and wanted to rejoin us, and often people who had gone away, broadened their experience and came back to our business with additional skills and additional knowledge. That was really quite encouraging and happened fairly often.

As an employer and a business owner, the term “dismissal” caused me a massive amount of grief. It was an issue we would never take lightly, but occasionally there would be a need to carry out dismissal on the basis of poor performance or unacceptable behaviour. But if ever my business went down that road, we knew that there were very strict rules of procedure laid down. We had to go through the correct processes, we had to be entirely sure of our facts and we had to build a case in the sure knowledge that that could be subject to a tribunal case and my business could be found to have behaved inappropriately or unfairly. I do think that, on occasions, the burden on business, and what it has to go through in the very sad cases in which that happens, is forgotten. I have to say that, at that time, the advice and guidance of ACAS in ensuring that my business behaved appropriately was incredibly helpful and very valuable.

[Mary Kelly Foy (City of Durham) (Lab)]

I would like to thank the hon. Member for highlighting the plight of those smaller businesses. Would he agree that Heathrow airport, British Airways, British Gas, Weetabix, Clarks, Argos and Sainsbury’s all are iconic British businesses? They have not engaged with their workforce, but they have engaged with that practice of fire and rehire. They are not struggling businesses. They are not just trying to get by. [Interruption.] They are not just trying to get by. They are powerful combinations—

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Order.

[Mary Kelly Foy]

They are—

--- Later in debate ---

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Order! Did the hon. Lady not hear me? She cannot make a speech. She can make an intervention. That is absolutely fine—[Interruption.] No, no. It is becoming a speech. If she has an intervention to make, then make an intervention, and she should not have to read an intervention because it should be really short.

[Mary Kelly Foy]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Would the hon. Member agree that these big, iconic British businesses are not engaging with their workforce like him, but they are engaging in fire and rehire practices, and they are a disgrace to British workers and to the name of Britain—

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Order. I think we have got it—Mr Pawsey.

[Mark Pawsey]

I think I understand the point, and I think the hon. Lady, if she has been here throughout the debate, will understand that there is a desire from this side for that not to happen, and for discussions and negotiations to take place at a much earlier stage.

We have had reference to the ACAS paper that was published in June 2021, which of course makes interesting reading. It tells us that dismissal and re-engagement is not new and has been around for some time, and it sets out the scenarios where it has been applied. Those of course include the harmonising of terms and conditions. There are many businesses that make acquisitions and find that they have staff on different terms from businesses that have come together over a number of years, and it is not appropriate for one set of employees in a business to be operating on different terms and conditions from those elsewhere in the business. There is a prima facie case, an immediate case, for why there should be some standardisation. During the pandemic, businesses have been required to introduce temporary or permanent flexibility in respect of hours worked, shift patterns and the security of hours. Covid has substantially affected—

--- Later in debate ---

[Martin Docherty-Hughes (West Dunbartonshire) (SNP)]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Given the feeling on this side of the House about fire and rehire, I wonder whether you can inform those Members who find this a profoundly disagreeable position whether the House authorities, or contractors providing services on behalf of the House, are utilising the policy of fire and rehire for the delivery of services within the Palace of Westminster.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his very reasonable point of order. He has asked a question to which I cannot give him a direct answer, because I do not know the answer, but I would say to him that it is of course not a matter for the Chair. It is, however, a matter for the House authorities. When I say it is not a matter for the Chair, I do not mean to imply that it is a matter about which the Chair is unconcerned. I will therefore endeavour to find out the answer to his question and let him know as soon as I possibly can.

[Mark Pawsey]

I was in the process of setting out the scenarios identified by ACAS in its paper of June 2021 on where dismissal and reinstatement had been used. The final point, which has been made by Conservative Members in particular, is the challenge of business survival in the current circumstances, with covid, and the need for businesses to get through an incredibly difficult time.

The ACAS paper also identified a number of differing attitudes to the reasonableness of using dismissal and reinstatement in dealing with one of those scenarios. It set out a series of positions, including, at the very top, the view that this should never be used. Before arriving in the Chamber this morning, I believed that that was the attitude of the Member promoting the Bill; I believed that he would never permit dismissal and reinstatement to take place. However, he told us today that in certain circumstances it can exist and that he is seeking not to ban it but to ensure that it is never needed to be used. I am sure that a number of his Opposition colleagues do not agree with that approach and would be in the “never” camp. Others see it as being a matter of concern when it is a negotiation tactic, which I think is a view common on this side of the House. There are those who see it as an option of genuine last resort, a view again sympathetically understood by those on this side. Others think it is not at all contentious—I do not think that anybody here believes that—and there are some who believe it is perfectly acceptable at any time, and the House has made its view clear on that.

I now wish to turn to the issue of Centrica, because the Select Committee on Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy looked at that. We heard in Centrica’s evidence to the Committee that the costs of its services were between 30% and 50% more expensive than the use of contractors. The senior management had real concerns about the viability of their business ongoing. They sought less to deal with the issue of pay, but more to deal with the number of hours on a standard contract. They wanted to increase that from 37 to 40 hours. Indeed, in their restructuring 20% of their staff would receive a pay rise. One thing that the chief executive reminded us of in his evidence was the need for businesses to keep sight of what the customer wants and what their needs are. Those of us who have been in business will know that the customer is king and that those of us who disregard the needs of our customers put their businesses at a significant disadvantage. Where businesses are uncompetitive, it is important to deal with these things at an early stage, because otherwise, as we know, the danger is of long-term redundancies and business failures, which are not in the interests of anybody.

--- Later in debate ---

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

Order. The hon. Ladies who are heckling me from the Labour Benches are quite right. The hon. Gentleman should not be making a speech. He is making an intervention. He can make two or three interventions, but he cannot make one long speech.

[Paul Scully]

Thank you very much for that clarification, Madam Deputy Speaker. My hon. Friend makes a really interesting point about unemployment.

[Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. It appears to me that there are considerably fewer Members in the Chamber now than voted against the closure motion you granted earlier. That would tend to give credence to the idea that the Government Whips have deliberately organised their Back Benchers to wreck the Bill by voting against the closure motion and then sent them home. Is it in your gift to grant a second closure motion, so that we can now test the will of those here in Parliament?

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his point of order, which is a perfectly reasonable one and one that had crossed my mind. However, I have come to the conclusion that, with everyone in the Chamber having been sitting here since 9.30 am, the Tea Room is probably full to overflowing at present. I am therefore not inclined to consider a second closure motion, having taken the will of the House less than an hour ago. That does not create a precedent for not doing so, but I am giving the hon. Gentleman a straight answer to his straight question.

[Paul Scully]

Thank you for that clarification, Madam Deputy Speaker. Indeed, I think Members from both sides of the House are taking advantage of the Tea Room, because both sides are lighter in numbers at the moment, but I always bow to your perspicacity. I would have thought that, in the last 20 minutes or so of the debate, Members pushing the Bill would want to hear the Government’s response to the merits or otherwise of the Bill, and what we are trying to do about the issue.