International Development (Scotland’s Role)

Debate between Eilidh Whiteford and Anas Sarwar

Wednesday 4th September 2013 Westminster Hall

[Anas Sarwar]

I am coming to that point in a second. Everywhere I have travelled to while serving on the Select Committee on International Development—whether it was Palestine, Rwanda or the Democratic Republic of the Congo—I have seen Scots who work for DFID leading teams and leading the difference that the UK makes to some of the hardest-hit places around the world.

The same Scot who was Chancellor of the Exchequer in 2005 later, as Prime Minister, put tax transparency on the agenda for the G20 in 2009. Many hon. Members will have received correspondence from constituents asking them to support the Enough Food for Everyone IF campaign, which calls on leaders of the G8 countries to take concerted action against global hunger. I highlight that campaign because it recognises the instincts of internationalism shared by people from all parts of the UK, who want to make a difference based not on nationality but on need.

As part of the UK, we play a leading role on the board of the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank. The UK has far greater combined influence when we speak with one voice than we could ever hope to achieve by speaking in isolation. It is not merely our position of influence that is a force for good. The combined budget of DFID this year is £10.7 billion—more if other departmental spend is included—which is used to deliver real change, lift people out of poverty and intervene to save lives.

Scotland is not simply part of the delivery but at the heart of it. DFID’s historic Scottish headquarters in East Kilbride, in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow (Mr McCann), has had a 30-year presence and employs more than 500 people to fight global poverty. The East Kilbride headquarters has developed from a transactional and corporate support function into a core part of the Department with responsibility for bilateral and multilateral projects. I take this opportunity to pay tribute to the staff in East Kilbride, many of whom I have had the pleasure of meeting when I have visited, for the tremendous work they do.

As we have found in debates about defence, or about civil service jobs in Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, there would be no simple transfer of Scottish-based jobs or services to a Scottish Government if the country voted for independence. Such jobs serve the whole DFID operation, which would have to be disentangled. It is inconceivable that a continuing UK DFID would locate a third of its jobs in what would become another country. The inescapable fact is that those jobs are at risk. For the Scottish National party to suggest anything else would be merely an assertion not backed up by reality.

[Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)]

The hon. Gentleman wants to spread scare stories yet again about what would happen in an independent Scotland. He may have noticed that the Scottish Government have operated a policy of no compulsory redundancies in the parts of the public sector for which they are responsible. That policy has sadly not been replicated in the rest of the UK. Would the Labour party support a policy of no compulsory redundancies for Scottish public sector workers?

[Anas Sarwar]

In case you do not follow day-to-day Scottish politics, Mr Davies, you just heard the same old line that we get continually from the SNP about scaremongering. For members of the SNP, the definition of scaremongering is asking a question to which they do not have the answer. They do not know what will happen to the DFID jobs that I have mentioned, which is why the hon. Lady did not want to raise that point. Are we likely to have large bases of civil service jobs in France, Spain or Portugal, for example? Is the First Minister likely to locate a third of the jobs in the new Scottish tax service, which he launched yesterday, in Norway? No, he is not. He will base them in his own country, and the same principle applies to jobs in DFID.

[Dr Whiteford]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Anas Sarwar]

I will happily give way if the hon. Lady will make a point that is more relevant to the debate.

[Dr Whiteford]

The contradiction in the hon. Gentleman’s argument is that he has highlighted the positive role played by Scots all over the world, especially in international development, but suggested that in Scotland we would suddenly forget all that if we opted to join the international community as an independent country. Of course we would not. We would hope to work with DFID and with other countries to ensure that good development work continued.

[Anas Sarwar]

I agree with that point, and I will address it in a moment. The hon. Lady fails to understand that I am talking about 500 staff in Scotland who control a budget of £10.7 billion, which services the entire UK DFID programme, not Scotland’s share of it. It is not possible to escape from that dichotomy as the hon. Lady is, sadly, trying to do.

One reason why I am so proud of my Scottish heritage is the overwhelming sense of compassion that Scots have for those who are less fortunate than ourselves and the incredible passion we have for making the world a better place for everyone. According to a recent study by New Philanthropy Capital, people in Scotland give more to charity than those in any other part of the UK. That is not simply a Scottish value; it is a Labour value. By contrast, the SNP likes to paint a picture of independence in which, free from the shackles of the UK, Scotland can pursue its natural preference for progressive politics. Scotland does not need to look to an independent future to achieve a progressive contribution to international development. We can be proud of our progressive record to date as part of the UK.

[Dr Whiteford]

Before we all get too self-congratulatory, does the hon. Gentleman share my disappointment that the previous Labour Government failed to meet their 0.7% target? They have been shamed by the Tories, who met that target. All the missing aid over those years would have gone a long way to help people in developing countries by improving health, education and water and things that really make a difference.

[Anas Sarwar]

I seem to have pre-empted the hon. Lady’s intervention, because I was just about to say that Labour MPs from Scotland helped to secure majority Labour Governments in the UK that were committed to pushing international development high up the political agenda. Labour appointed the first Minister for overseas development. Labour established DFID with a Secretary of State in the Cabinet. Labour doubled and then trebled international aid. Labour secured debt relief. Labour set in place the 0.7% target that has been hit in 2013. We should be proud of that record, instead of trying to talk it down.

Scots can be immensely proud of their contribution to that record; millions more children are in school, mothers are giving birth safely and AIDS sufferers have access to life-saving medicines because of the decisions made by successive Labour Governments that Scots helped to elect. In Budget after Budget, and at international summit after international summit, a Labour Government fought on the side of the poor and the marginalised, transforming their lives for better and establishing Britain as a leading force for social justice in the world.

The UK has joined the select group of only five countries on the OECD’s development assistance committee that have reached the target of providing 0.7% of their national income in aid. It is worth noting that many countries the SNP holds out as examples of the benefits that accrue from independence are well below that target.

I care about reducing poverty and inequality not only in Scotland, but in other parts of the UK and across the world. Poverty has no respect for borders; I have yet to see an inequality that stops at a line on a map. That is why I recognise, as do others on the Labour Benches and, I am sure, right across the House, that pooling and sharing our resources across the UK is the best way of making a difference in the UK and across the world.

For me and the majority of Scots, our beliefs and compassion extend not just to people living within the borders of Scotland, but to people right across the globe. Members will be aware that a Scottish engineer, William Burton, developed one of the first drinking water systems in Japan. We all know the story of David Livingstone and about the close links that remain with Malawi. Those are just two examples, but fine ones, of how Scots have a long and proud history of making a difference in the world.

Scottish organisations are still making a difference today. DFID works with a number of leading Scottish charities to deliver its aid and humanitarian support programmes. It recently announced that Mercy Corps, which is headquartered in Scotland, and which is one of the top organisations specialising in disaster response, has been selected for a new UK rapid-response network. Another Scottish charity, the Global Alliance for Livestock Veterinary Medicines, recently received funding of more than £31.2 million from DFID and the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation. Those are just two examples of the many Scottish organisations that work in partnership with DFID and deliver change around the world.

As a former member of the International Development Committee, I have witnessed at first hand some of the fantastic work DFID has done, and is doing, in places such as the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Burundi and Rwanda. In 1998, DFID gave Rwanda £20 million to help improve the Rwandan revenue authority; on average, Rwanda now collects that amount once every four weeks. Currently, DFID is providing £348 million in response to the humanitarian crisis in Syria—a fact we should all welcome.

The hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Dr Whiteford) mentioned the Scottish Government’s commitment, and it is commendable that they have committed £9 million of their budget to international assistance. However, as part of the UK, Scotland, based on its population share—if that is the calculation we choose to use—contributes about £900 million. We have influence over, and control of, a budget of more than £10 billion, alongside a seat at the top table at the IMF and World Bank. There can be few more bizarre arguments in favour of independence than the one that says, “Let’s turn our backs on this. Let’s walk away from a budget of billions and a Department that is a force for good across the globe, with the second largest aid budget in the world.”

I have no doubt an independent Scotland would want to ensure that it maintained Scotland’s proud record of providing international development support; of course it would—the people of Scotland would insist on it. However, it is not clear how that would happen, because on this issue, as on other issues, the SNP does not have a plan. All DFID’s good work is at risk. The contribution Scots make to meeting our global obligations would be cast aside at the altar of independence.

In a recent article for The Herald newspaper, the hon. Member for Moray (Angus Robertson) said:

“Independence offers us the opportunity to make Scotland’s place in the world one that meets the aspirations of our people.”

Well, I believe the aspirations of Scots go well beyond the nationalists’ blinkered, narrow approach. Are we really saying that we could have the same impact and the same budget and that we would require the same number of jobs with a fraction of the budget? Are we really saying that we would have the same influence across the world if we were standing in isolation, instead of sitting at the top table when discussions are had and decisions are made? Only the nationalists could believe so.

What would happen to the DFID jobs in East Kilbride in a separate Scotland? What would happen to Scottish charities such as Mercy Corps or GALVmed, which work with DFID to deliver its aid and humanitarian support programmes? Would staff working in East Kilbride have to relocate, or would they be made redundant? How much would it cost the Scottish Government to set up their own dedicated Department for International Development, or how much would Scottish charities in receipt of DFID funding lose? Crucially, how much would an independent Scotland spend on overseas development? Surely, after having thought about independence for so many years—for all its existence—the SNP would have answers to such basic questions. The sad reality is that, before, the answer to every problem was independence; now that the issue is independence, however, the nationalists simply have no answers.

Given that the Scottish Government’s international development fund is so small, by what amount, if any, would it be increased? What would be the implications for people in extreme poverty and for developing countries? Which DFID programmes would continue to receive funding in a separate Scotland? Which would have their funding reduced or cut altogether? Those questions cannot just be ignored—they must be answered.

Those are just some of the questions the International Development Committee hopes to find answers to in its inquiry about the implications for development following possible Scottish independence. I welcome that inquiry, and I urge all colleagues across the House—from all political parties and all parts of the UK—to engage with the debate.

Those are important questions for the Scots working for DFID in East Kilbride. They are important questions for the Scottish charities working with DFID or in receipt of DFID funding. Most of all, however, they are important questions for those of us who abhor poverty and the wasting of life chances, wherever they occur, and who recognise that our responsibility is not just to those in need in our own towns and villages, but to everyone in our global village.

Food Banks (Scotland)

Debate between Eilidh Whiteford and Anas Sarwar

Wednesday 19th December 2012 Westminster Hall

[Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)]

Thank you, Mr Betts, for calling me to speak and I will endeavour to keep to the time stipulations.

I begin by commending the hon. Member for Glenrothes (Lindsay Roy) on bringing such an important issue to the House today in one of the last debates that we will be having in Westminster Hall before the Christmas recess, when I am sure that many of us will eat and drink a lot more than is necessarily good for us. It is, therefore, timely for us to remember that some people’s festivities will be extremely frugal this year, particularly if they are in food poverty.

I must confess that I do not think food banks are a good means of addressing the low-income inequality that gives rise to the need for them, but they are playing an increasingly important role in emergency provision for people who are in crisis. We can only commend the people in our local churches and communities who are stepping up to fill that gap in what should be an important part of our social protection provision, to ensure that people do not go hungry at what is a very difficult time for many people economically.

The Trussell Trust and Citizens Advice Scotland have both presented a picture—one that is remarkably similar across the islands—of a doubling in demand for food bank provision during the last year alone. This morning, it is particularly important to pay tribute to the work of CAS, which has done so much to highlight the exponential growth in food banks and, critically, has also attempted to understand the reasons for that growth. Its analysis, especially in its “Voices from the Front Line” report, which was published this autumn, identifies the key drivers very well.

Margaret Lynch, chief executive of CAS, has described the historical backdrop of food parcels and the situation that we are in now. She points out that charities such as the Salvation Army and the Society of St Vincent de Paul have always provided practical assistance for families in crisis who temporarily could not feed themselves. In this recession, the number of working families and people on benefits who need help to feed their children and themselves has increased exponentially. Margaret Lynch says:

“The National Minimum Wage has failed to keep pace with the massive increases in food prices over the last 5 years, leaving many low income families facing food insecurity. The fact that 50% of those getting food parcels are working is shocking.”

[Anas Sarwar]

It is interesting to note that the Scottish National party failed to turn up to vote in favour of the national minimum wage when it was put in front of this Parliament.

Let us not argue about what the cause of this crisis is. What are the Scottish Government specifically doing to help ease the pain of families across Scotland?

[Dr Whiteford]

I have to disagree with the hon. Gentleman, because if we do not understand the causes of this crisis and articulate them clearly and properly, we cannot take effective action. We have seen his own Government in previous generations throw money at problems but with no, or negligible, impact. Until we understand what is driving this crisis, there is absolutely no point flinging words around Westminster Hall.

The fact that 50% of people claiming food parcels are working is—

Scotland and the Union

Debate between Eilidh Whiteford and Anas Sarwar

Thursday 29th November 2012 Commons Chamber

[Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab)]

I am almost tempted to wish that there was no time limit, because the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) was making the case stronger than anyone on either side of the House could have done. He clearly forgot his “Yes Scotland” positivity pills this morning, as it took nine minutes before we heard any positive case for Scotland’s becoming an independent country.

We need to change the language of this debate, and I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing) and my hon. Friend the Member for Livingston (Graeme Morrice) who have pushed this debate and provided us with an opportunity to do so today. We need a positive, engaging debate about what is in the best interests of Scotland and the UK’s future, not the language of whether Scotland is too small or too wee to be a successful country—incidentally, only SNP Members say that; no Labour Members have ever used such language. The question that I would throw back to the nationalists is this. I believe that the people of Scotland are creative, talented and innovative enough to be successful in the United Kingdom—why don’t they?

The referendum is not about whether Scotland can or cannot manage on its own. Of course Scotland could be a successful, independent country, and it insults the intelligence of the Scottish people to suggest that it could not. The choice is not about whether Scotland can be successful but about whether it would be a fairer and more prosperous country with more opportunities if it works in partnership with England, Wales and Northern Ireland. Labour Members believe that it will be, and we will be making that positive case in the referendum.

I am not modest about Scotland’s ambitions. I genuinely believe that Scotland stands taller and shouts louder when it works in partnership with other areas of the UK, representing ourselves on the global stage. Yes, the Union has a proud history—300 years of shared history, security and prosperity. It has enjoyed success, as hon. Members have heard many times before. A Scot created the Bank of England, a Welshman our NHS and an Englishman our welfare state—but this is not about history; it is about Scotland’s future.

Scotland deserves an open, engaging debate, not only on its constitutional settlement, but, more importantly, on what kind of Scotland we want to live in and want our children to live in. What will Scotland look like in 20 years’ time? Will it be able to compete with other parts of the UK and in the world?

[Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)]

I am sure the hon. Gentleman is aware that inequality in Scotland increased over the term of the previous Labour Government. Does he believe Scotland will fulfil its potential as an equal and fair society as part of the Union?

[Anas Sarwar]

It is untrue to say that health inequalities widened under the Labour Government, but it is factually correct to say that inequalities are increasing in Scotland under the watch of Alex Salmond, Nicola Sturgeon and the Scottish Government. Health inequalities are increasing and educational opportunities are decreasing. People from working class backgrounds in Scotland are less likely to go to college or university than people from working class backgrounds in England and Wales. That is happening on the watch of the Scottish National party, not of the Tories or Labour, so will the hon. Lady please not lecture Labour Members on our record? She should focus more on her party’s record in government.

What Scotland do we want to create for future generations? We want it to be a successful country in which to bring up our children, but what role do we want Scotland to play in the world? I want Scotland not to isolate itself, but to engage with its partners in the UK to take on the big challenges of global poverty, to fight climate change, and to fight for justice and fairness in the world. What differentiates Labour Members and SNP Members? Labour Members did not come into politics because we wanted to fight poverty only in our constituencies or our country. We want to fight poverty and create opportunity not only in Glasgow and Edinburgh, but in Manchester, Birmingham and around the world. I do not believe we will do that by creating a border between Scotland and England. There is a vote on a UN resolution today on enhanced status for the Palestinian people, which will hopefully work towards a positive resolution by which we have an independent Palestinian state living side by side with Israel. I came into politics to fight for an independent Palestinian state and for self-determination for the people of Kashmir, not to break up my own country. I want to fight injustice in other parts of the world.

One big point is that we can make the positive case for Scotland economically, emotionally, socially and politically. The most successful aid agency in the world is headquartered in Scotland. It employs hundreds of people, has a budget of £7 billion, helps to save hundreds of thousands of lives every year, and lifts hundreds of thousands of people out of poverty every year, which demonstrates the collective strength of Scotland working in partnership. We are a key member of the UN Security Council not for power or prestige, but to fight tyranny and oppression around the world. I want Scotland to have its full voice in that process. We are a leading economy and country in the G8. A Scottish leader as Prime Minister worked with the G8 to stop a global recession becoming a global depression. Those are positive arguments for Scotland remaining part of the UK, not the negative arguments we get from the SNP.

On the quality of the debate, we will have heated debates and the usual Scottish politics spats between Labour and the SNP and others between now and the referendum—[Interruption.] If the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire wants to make an intervention, I am more than happy to take it. We are divided politically, but we do not want our country to be divided in the process. Whatever happens in the referendum and whatever decision Scotland makes, we must ensure that we come together in the best interests of Scotland and ensure that we fight and create a fairer, more equal country.

Scottish Separation

Debate between Eilidh Whiteford and Anas Sarwar

Tuesday 10th July 2012 Westminster Hall

[Dr Whiteford]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for that intervention. However, across Scotland, the Scottish Government have shown their commitment to living standards through a range of measures including on pay, prescriptions and all kinds of things that Labour could have dealt with when it was in power and chose not to.

There are various myths about Scotland’s economic position, some of which we have already heard this morning. I am glad that we have not heard too much about the biggest myth of all: that Scotland cannot pay its way. That is simply because the evidence just does not stack up. The reality is that the official Government expenditure and revenue figures show that Scotland has a smaller fiscal deficit than the UK as a whole—not just this year or last year but over the past five years. Even when North sea oil revenues fell by 50% in 2009-10, Scotland’s fiscal position remained stronger than that of the UK as a whole. In the most recent figures for 2010-11, Scotland accounted for 9.3% of UK public spending but 9.6% of UK tax revenue. Our 9.6% of UK tax was generated with just 8.4% of the population, which adds up to £1,300 for every man, woman and child in Scotland.

However, despite the relative strength of the public finances, as a result of the financial crisis and the fiscal mismanagement of successive UK Governments, the UK has a legacy of debt—as, indeed, the hon. Member for Livingston pointed out. Scotland will have to deal with that debt, whether we are independent or not. I put it to the hon. Gentleman that if UK public debt was allocated on a per capita basis, for 2010-11—the last year for which figures are available—Scotland’s net debt would be 51% of GDP compared with 60% for the UK as a whole. Let us not pretend that that is good, but it is certainly not as bad as some people might think. We must consider the reality of the current situation without necessarily looking at Scotland in pure isolation.

Scotland’s fiscal position is stronger than that of the UK, and it will remain so if we remain committed to utilising Scotland’s strong economic foundations and asset base to ensure fiscal responsibility. Recent figures published by the Office for National Statistics showed that, in 2010, Scotland was the third richest part of the UK—behind London and the south-east—with a gross value added per head of 99% of the UK average. That is excluding oil and gas output. If Scotland’s geographical share of oil and gas is included—the internationally recognised way to distribute such a resource—the GVA adds up to 115% of the UK average. That makes us approximately the 6th highest in the OECD.

[Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab)]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Dr Whiteford]

I will not, thanks. I will try to make some progress.

I represent a constituency that is very much at the heart of the energy sector, so the maturation of the oil and gas fields presents economic challenges and opportunities. That is why it is so important for us to continue to invest in renewable energy, carbon capture and energy supply chains. Yet renewable energy producers in Aberdeenshire are paying £21.49 per kilowatt to connect to the grid, while London-based generators are being subsidised by £13.35 per kilowatt. That is a classic example of Westminster policy making undermining our economic potential.

--- Later in debate ---

[Anas Sarwar]

The hon. Lady is clearly very passionate about the case for independence. I just have a brief question. Did she make a submission to the Scottish Government’s consultation and, in her submission, did she ask for one question or for two?

[Dr Whiteford]

I do not want to go down the road of discussing the referendum, but I have always been very clear that I want one question on the ballot paper. I am happy to have that debate, but I am also listening. It is very sad that politicians are not listening to what people who are not involved in political parties are saying about this. Many of them are contributing and we have seen some very interesting ideas and good proposals from a diverse range of sources. It would be good if all of us listened to what people in civil society are saying to us. I am very clear about where I stand on the issue: I want Scotland to have the powers of an independent country, and I will argue vociferously for that. I do not see what is complicated.

I would like Scotland to have the power to make better tax policies. I would like us to have capital borrowing powers, so that we can make the investments in our infrastructure that we so badly need. I would like us to be able to build the houses and the roads we so badly need. I would like us to have the ability to incentivise the development of new technologies in renewable energy and the low carbon, life science, small business and tourism sectors. Those are the places where our economic growth will come from. If we were putting the investment into those sectors, it would have a huge impact on our economy.

If we had influence over the Crown Estate, which manages our seabed out to 12 miles and almost half our foreshore, we would be in a much stronger position to co-ordinate the efforts of manufacturers, the energy sector and regulation and planning to deliver the full benefits of the marine renewables energy revolution for Scotland.

Being independent would also enable us to boost our international profile. It would help us to contribute to key decision making in Europe and beyond and it would give us powers to boost our connectivity and linkages with our key trading partners. At a time when the emerging economies are growing so fast, it is crucial that we have an opportunity to connect with them directly and more effectively than we are able to do at the moment.

All these things give us a chance to tackle inequality. I just point to the apprenticeship scheme—25,000 young Scots will get an apprenticeship this year alone. By creating training opportunities, bringing people into the work force and retaining their skills, frankly, we can save the welfare state millions of pounds in unpaid benefits. If we had a joined-up system, with co-ordination between economic, education and welfare policies, those savings could be reinvested better than they are at the moment and used to boost economic activity.

I envisage Scotland thriving and prospering, but right now I am watching an austerity agenda running out of control while the UK economy stagnates. I believe that Scotland can do better and has the opportunity to do better. That is why I want the Scottish Parliament to have the levers of independent governance at its disposal. That does not mean that there will not be hard decisions to make, but it does mean taking responsibility for improving life in Scotland and building a vibrant and resilient economy that supports our people and reflects our values.