S4C

Lord Vaizey of Didcot Excerpts

Wednesday 20th October 2010 Westminster Hall

[Owen Smith]

It is a question for the Minister, in that case. Can he tell us what the figures are?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey)]

You cannot question me.

[Owen Smith]

Well, then, it is a question for the hon. Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb). Would he like to answer a question about the figures?

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey)]

It is an honour and a privilege to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Brooke. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) on securing this timely debate, which has allowed Members to consider the future not only of S4C, but of Welsh language programming and its funding levels. I want to put on the record the Government’s support for Welsh language programming and S4C’s continuing role in it.

[Jonathan Evans (Cardiff North) (Con)]

On that point, I point out to the Minister that S4C’s headquarters are based in my constituency and that I have met its executives to discuss the situation on a number of occasions. I have advised them to engage with him. I have a copy of a statement made by S4C’s chair:

“I am astounded at the contempt that the London government has shown not just towards S4C, but also towards the Welsh people and indeed the language itself.”

Would the Minister like to deal with that statement?

[Mr Vaizey]

I will use my hon. Friend’s intervention to make it absolutely clear that my hon. Friends have been assiduous in putting the case for S4C, and they have been not a little successful in doing so. If anyone is to be accused of contempt for S4C, it is certainly not Conservative Members in Wales; as my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy noted, S4C was established by a Conservative Government. I do not want to make the debate any more heated, so I will not comment on the chair’s specific remarks—my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff North will have to forgive me, but discretion is the better part of valour. I will point out, however, that we are not a “London Government” but the Government of the United Kingdom, and we have to make decisions with the interests not only of the Welsh people at heart, but of the people of the whole United Kingdom.

[Hywel Williams]

Would the Minister tell Members when the chairman of S4C and the Welsh Assembly Government’s Minister for Heritage were informed of the Government’s decision?

[Mr Vaizey]

I cannot give the hon. Gentleman an answer off the top of my head, but I will do so as soon as my officials make that clear to me. Alternatively, I can let him know in writing, or by answering a written parliamentary question.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Vaizey]

I remind hon. Members that I have only 10 minutes in which to make my case.

[Paul Flynn]

Before the Minister rewrites history, I remind him that the Conservative Government turned down the idea of a fourth channel in 1979. Mrs Thatcher changed her mind under duress because Gwynfor Evans was touring Wales and claimed that he would starve himself to death if there was no fourth channel. She had been reading Irish history at the time and did not want a martyr in Wales, which could have caused all kinds of problems. It was not an act of generosity or good sense on the part of the Conservatives.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Vaizey]

We can spend the debate looking backwards or forwards. I want to look forward, as I believe that S4C has a bright future under the Government’s proposals. As so much of our discussions come down to funding, I will make it clear that in the financial year 2011-12, S4C will receive £90 million, which is a substantial sum of money. By 2014-15, the channel will receive a total of £83 million, which is still a substantial sum of money. My hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy referred to S4C’s £3 million of commercial income, which he felt was a low sum of money. Nevertheless, it is £3 million, and S4C has £27 million in reserve, which is available to spend on its statutory duty. To my mind, that is a substantial sum of money for securing the future of Welsh programming.

[Alun Cairns]

I congratulate the Minister on the figures that he just announced, because they are a significant pledge of support to S4C. How do they compare with the cuts that the Department and the Government have had to make as a result of the financial position that we inherited? Will all of that money be output-focused and spent on independent production companies? Will the BBC in any way be able to siphon it away under the suggested arrangement?

[Mr Vaizey]

My hon. Friend makes very important points. Overall, the Department agreed with the Treasury a 24% to 25% cut, so S4C is not being singled out. In fact, in mentioning the BBC, he reminded me that if we take the £90 million, the £3 million of commercial income and the £27 million of reserves, we still have not counted the equivalent of £20 million of free programming that is already available from the BBC for S4C. That is a substantial sum.

Given the important representations made by my hon. Friends over the past few weeks on the future of S4C, and the interest that the people of Wales take in the future of S4C, I know that parts of this debate will play on the news tonight in Wales. People in Wales will be watching this debate, perhaps on BBC Parliament, and I want them to know about the £90 million next year, the equivalent of £20 million in programming from the BBC, £3 million in commercial income and £27 million in reserves. I have enough faith in the people of Wales to believe that they will look at the funding figures for S4C and think that they are generous, so for the Opposition to depict this move as an attempt to undermine S4C is an outrageous travesty of the truth. [Interruption.]

[Annette Brooke (in the Chair)]

Order. If the Minister is not taking interventions, he is not taking interventions.

[Mr Vaizey]

I was not taking interventions because I wanted to finish my point, but I will take one now.

[Hywel Williams]

May I point out that the Chancellor today announced that the funding for the London Olympics of £9.3 billion will be maintained, that there will be capital spending on Tate Modern, the British Museum and the British Library—all in London—and that the Arts Council England and Sport England budgets will be reduced, but only by 15%? Those institutions are of huge cultural significance to the United Kingdom in general and specifically to England, yet a similar institution in Wales, S4C, is being cut by 25%. How can the Minister defend that position?

[Mr Vaizey]

The hon. Gentleman knows that the 25% cut is the same as the Department’s cut, and he will no doubt be delighted, given how he wants to portray the situation, that culture is a devolved matter for Wales. However, let us also discuss future arrangements. [Interruption.] I want to move on to a new point.

People have talked about a lack of consultation. The BBC will not take over responsibility for S4C until 2013-14. The Welsh Affairs Committee has announced an inquiry into S4C, so there will be plenty of time for people to make representations about the situation. [Interruption.] Let me set out a few markers so that when interventions are made by the Opposition they can be made in a timely and forensic fashion.

First, the editorial independence of S4C will be guaranteed, regardless of the fact that it will be funded by the BBC. In response to my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Alun Cairns), absolutely 100% of the content budget will be spent on independent production, as it is at present. That, of course, is the content budget, and S4C obviously has an administration budget as well. The BBC will not be in a position to siphon off money for promotion on BBC channels. It will be for the BBC and S4C, in the two years that they have to put the arrangement in place, to talk through the exact details of how the money will be used.

[Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

On a point of clarity, will the changes that the Minister is rattling through at the moment require legislation?

[Mr Vaizey]

As the hon. Gentleman knows, the public bodies Bill will include a clause to break the retail prices index link. I have no doubt that he and his colleagues will be able to get on their feet during its passage and state what the Labour party’s position is. Will Labour Members table an amendment to retain the link with inflation, and to insulate S4C from the difficult financial decisions that many other bodies are planning to take? If not, what is the Labour party’s position? Is it to restore the funding of S4C to 2010-11 levels and take it up to what it might have been in 2014-15? Does it not support the BBC taking responsibility for the funding of S4C, although it remains independent?

[Kevin Brennan]

Sophistry.

[Mr Vaizey]

The hon. Gentleman calls that sophistry. I call it simple, direct questions. Opposition Members are playing politics when they know full well that S4C has a very generous funding settlement, has substantial reserves, has a place in the heart of the Welsh people, and has huge support from Conservative Members of Parliament in Wales who have lobbied Ministers assiduously on behalf of S4C. If that is sophistry, I would like to know what is not.

[Ian Lucas]

The Minister talked about S4C and the BBC consulting over a two-year period. When will the legislation be brought forward? Will that be a matter of weeks?

[Mr Vaizey]

We are introducing a public bodies Bill, and under the coalition Government, Parliament has plenty of time to debate Bills in a way that was impossible under the previous Government, who seemed to find the guillotine almost as attractive as Robespierre.

I look forward to hearing Labour Members making their points, and I leave the debate with this reassurance for hon. Members. The Government are committed to Welsh language programming, we are committed to the future of S4C, and we have put in place a generous settlement for S4C. I have been bowled over by the energy and enthusiasm of my Welsh colleagues and their defence of S4C. It will be interesting to hear the Select Committee inquiry under the excellent stewardship of my hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth (David T. C. Davies). We are moving forward with a bright future for S4C.

Question put and agreed to.