Carer’s Allowance

Ed Davey Excerpts

Monday 22nd April 2024 Westminster Hall

[Ed Davey (Kingston and Surbiton) (LD)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Neath (Christina Rees) on bringing the e-petition to the House and on her excellent speech. I agree with everything she said.

We should begin by looking at the big-picture issues that the carer’s allowance helps us to address—currently very inadequately. The first is the issue of social justice. Carers often work long hours in very difficult, trying circumstances, and they receive the lowest benefit of the lot. They are treated as if they do not matter. That has to change. We must change the value that we place on care in order to end income inequality.

Supporting care properly through the carer’s allowance would make a big difference as part of a proper social justice agenda, but it is about much more than that. It is about the link between care and the NHS. Carers do such a fantastic job. Their work helps the NHS and the taxpayer, saving them billions of pounds. Were it not for unpaid family carers or carers who receive the very limited allowance, the NHS would literally fall over. We must consider this debate about carer’s allowance in the context of social justice and the future of the NHS.

Another issue that I hope the Minister will look at is the link with the economic problems we are facing. We are told that the Department for Work and Pensions is looking at the need to help people to get back into work; well, there are a lot of people who cannot get back into work because they are caring. They would like to work more, but if they work more, they get penalised. This is clearly the issue of the day, and I know that the Chair of the Select Committee, the right hon. Member for East Ham (Sir Stephen Timms), will address it. If the Government are worried about work incentives and making sure there are people to do the jobs we need, they should look at the level of the carer’s allowance and all the conditions and criteria around it. It is way overdue for reform.

I wanted to start by raising those general issues, before getting down into the basics, which the hon. Member for Neath rightly took us through. We need a complete review of the carer’s allowance, including the rate it is paid at, the conditions around it and how it relates to other benefits and issues. Let me give one or two examples.

One issue is age. As the hon. Lady said, people who are in education and are affected by the 21-hour rule cannot receive carer’s allowance. That discriminates against young people. Young carers arguably need support more than any other kind of carer. We need to look at the interaction with education, and I would even consider those below the age of 16, because some young carers are basically doing a full-time job as well as their GCSEs and studies.

We also need to look at carer’s allowance for people who are over the pension age. To give them credit, the Labour Government began to do that, but we need to take that further, because some pensioners work incredibly hard and do really stressful jobs but are ineligible for carer’s allowance. We urgently need a full-scale review of carer’s allowance.

On the overpayment issue, which is really worrying, there are two aspects that we have to address. One is the legacy: all the carer’s allowance that has apparently been overpaid and that the Government are looking to claw back. That is a big legacy issue that we need to look at, and I would like to ask the Minister some questions about it. It is clearly an issue that we all have to face up to and try to tackle.

There is then the issue of trying to stop the overpayments happening in the first place. I have seen a number of reports and parliamentary answers on this issue, but I have never quite nailed it down to satisfaction, so I let me ask the Minister some questions. How much money does the DWP believe has been overpaid in carer’s allowance and is yet to be clawed back from people? What is the figure and what is the debt? We have seen different amounts, but what is the cumulative total, going back however many years that the DWP is worried about? In other words, how big is this problem? Give us the size of it so that we can try to get a feel for it. How much is owed?

By how much were people being overpaid? I have seen figures from Carers UK and some parliamentary answers that suggests the vast bulk relates to people who were overpaid just a little bit—£2 a week—and because of the cliff edge they have to pay back the whole amount. If they have been overpaid by an average of £2 a week for a year, they are having to pay back the whole lot. The cliff-edge problem is creating a total injustice and everyone can see that on all sides. Let us have some more figures and transparency from the Government so that we can understand.

I hope the Minister can go into more detail—for example, in how many cases was the DWP aware that people were being overpaid and still did not alert them? We read in the press that the DWP is sometimes aware and, for whatever reason, does not notify people. There is something really wrong with trying to claim back money from someone who has been overpaid when the DWP was aware and they were not, and that only compounds the errors. We really need to understand some of this information—which I hope the Minister has at her fingertips—if we are to come to a view on dealing with the huge problem of the overpayments legacy. I do not think there is a single Member of this House or the other place who thinks it is right to pursue some of these overpayments with some of these people. It really beggars belief in many cases.

Finally, overpayments are still happening on a regular, systemic basis. Because of the cliff-edge problem that the hon. Member for Neath rightly touched on, it is happening by accident every single day. As the hon. Member mentioned, the Government were warned about this—after a National Audit Office report in 2019, they admitted it was a problem and said they were going to fix it—but here we are, and it has not been fixed and it has got worse. We need to understand how the Government are going to address this issue to ensure that the problem does not just get worse and keep reoccurring. We read that it is a terribly big IT system that will cost millions to fix, but why should carers be penalised because the Government cannot get their systems right? That does not seem right to me. The Government have to sort it out and, in the meantime, treat carers fairly.

I am keen to hear the contributions of others, and hope that we can come together on this issue and realise that carers are getting a raw deal, which is bad for inequality, bad for the NHS and bad for our economy. We urgently need not only a fix to deal with the problems we have at the moment but a long-term fix so that this is sorted out once and for all.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Minister for Disabled People, Health and Work (Mims Davies)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Cummins. It is a pleasure to respond to what has been a slightly protracted, wide-ranging e-petition debate. I thank the hon. Member for Neath (Christina Rees) for introducing it with a characteristically thoughtful and wide-ranging speech, and I welcome Alasdair’s raising the issue.

This debate is welcome. It comes at a challenging time for our carers looking after their loved ones: we are post-covid and we face cost of living pressures due to the invasion of Ukraine. It is a challenging time for all of us, but most particularly our carers. I want, like many, to begin by paying tribute to the millions of unpaid carers across this country. Very thoughtful and personal contributions have been made by hon. Members, and I duly note the queries and challenges they have raised. I have much to say in response.

First, I know that people are concerned that the Government do not recognise and value the contributions made by carers every day in providing this significant care and continuity of support to family and friends, including pensioners and those with disabilities, but it is really important to put on record that that is not my perception. That is not how I want people to see this Government. I will do my best to make that clear to those watching.

The 2021 census indicates that around 5 million people in England and Wales may be doing some unpaid care, with many of us taking on that role at some point in our lives. Like other hon. Members, I see much of the work that is done by carers in my postbag, at events in my constituency, at carer’s rights days, or through engaging with my constituents in Mid Sussex. None of us is immune to the challenges of caring. Colleagues will know that this is of particular interest to me as a former carer and as part of a caring family. I pay tribute to all who do this daily. It is a difficult job—one that is the best and the worst in the world, in some ways. You will always be grateful that you have been there. It is precious and hard going in equal measure and I pay tribute to all those doing that.

Carers are fortunate enough to have some wonderful advocates. We have seen that both in the contributions of MPs to this debate and in organisations such as Carers UK, Carers Trust and the Learning and Work Institute, to name but three. Some of those have been mentioned already. I meet Carers UK regularly, and will be doing so again shortly. I was delighted that my officials were able to meet recently with a wonderful delegation of inspirational young carers who were part of Young Carers Action Day in March.

I also pay tribute to the hundreds of DWP staff, largely based in the north-west, who provide financial support to a million unpaid carers through the carer’s allowance, day in and day out. I want to make sure that our approach is one of always being happy to look at to mistakes or other issues and of always treating each case on its merits.

It would be misleading the House if I was not completely clear that this is a policy area that I have been hugely interested in, both as a Back Bencher through the work of the all-party parliamentary group and now as a Minister. I have been acutely interested in these matters, and I can be clear with the House that, since coming to this role, this is a matter that I have been examining. I genuinely welcome this debate.

I want to support those unpaid carers to do some of the paid work that they love, want to do and continue to do, something that they can balance alongside their commitments to their loved ones—the people who they are looking after. We have of course legislated to ensure that employees will be entitled to five days of unpaid care leave per year and will be supported through more flexible working in the workplace. I encourage employers listening to consider job design, have supportive conversations and be part of acknowledging this invaluable role. This is a community, employee and Government partnership.

[Ed Davey]

When the Minister talks about legislating for five days’ leave for carers, will she mention my hon. Friend the Member for North East Fife (Wendy Chamberlain), who piloted that legislation with cross-party support?

[Mims Davies]

Yes, indeed. I was supportive of that myself, attending where possible to support that legislation going through. The Government absolutely welcome the cross-party work the hon. Member for North East Fife (Wendy Chamberlain) did piloting that, and congratulations to her.

On the specific subject of the debate, we are spending record amounts to support unpaid carers. Real-terms expenditure for carer’s allowance is forecast to be £4.1 billion in 2024-25 and by 2028-29 the Government are forecast to spend over £4.5 billion a year on carer’s allowance. We spend another £685 million to support carers receiving universal credit through the carer element.

As mentioned today, patterns of care have changed significantly over the past decade. People are providing vital unpaid care to relatives and friends in a whole range of circumstances that work for all concerned, but I also recognise that none of this is easy. Nearly one million people now receive carer’s allowance, and the weekly rate increased this month to £81.90. That means that since 2010 it has increased from £53.90 to £81.90 a week, providing an additional £1,500 a year to carers through the carer’s allowance compared with 2010. Of course, there are additional amounts for carers in universal credit and other ways forward, and it is important that those watching and those who maybe have not had this conversation are aware of those and come forward to get the support they need. That also can be through the household support fund. We know that unexpected outgoings happen, and people should reach out through their local authority and through Barnett consequentials. I know that that has been an important support mechanism for carers.

The crux of the petition we have been debating is that we should turn carer’s allowance into a carer’s wage. It is important to emphasise that the carer’s allowance is not intended to be a replacement for a wage or a payment for services of caring, hence some of the issues rightly raised today. It is therefore not directly comparable to either the national minimum wage or the national living wage. The principal purpose of the carer’s allowance as it stands, and under successive Governments since 1976, is to provide a measure of financial support and recognition for people who are not able to work full time because of their caring responsibilities. I reiterate that I welcome the debate and the opportunity to review and understand these issues. Successive Governments have supported carers through allowances and benefits, as well as wider cross-Government actions, rather than paying people directly for the tasks they undertake in the way that an employer would.