Earl of Erroll
Main Page: Earl of Erroll (Crossbench - Excepted Hereditary)Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill
Earl of Erroll Excerpts
Lord Clement-Jones
My Lords, I thank the Minister. If anything, what he has just said demonstrates the complexity of copyright legislation and the provisions of what is now Clause 78. One of the interesting things about this Bill is that when debating Part 6 we have continuously had to push our horizons forward. I think that when we started it was Clause 57 onwards, then it was Clause 66 onwards and it is now Clause 76 onwards, but we are very flexible and adaptable here. The amendment demonstrates not only the complexity of copyright law but the flexibility and willingness to listen that the Minister has demonstrated throughout our debate on Part 6. I welcome his response to the concerns, particularly of those in the news agencies and of photographers, about the possible impact of Clause 78, and I am delighted by the outcome.
If we were in Committee, we would probably want to probe the exact meaning of Amendment 9 to,
“make different provision for different purposes”.
However, as we are at Third Reading, I think we will let the Minister get away without too much debate on those words. They are quite wide, and the other place or whoever might wish to have a discussion about them.
The Earl of Erroll
My Lords, I add a slight note of dissent. I entirely agree with Amendment 9, which gives greater flexibility to,
“make different provision for different purposes”.
However, Amendment 8 paints the regulation-makers into a corner. I quite see the point of the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, on the commercial stuff. This is his word as a commercial lawyer among the large rights holders and the people who make money out of this material. I see their point. They have invested heavily in some of this stuff, as in other cases, and they want a commercial return on it.
The trouble is with all the other stuff. This is not just about photographs sitting in commercial archives or produced for a commercial purpose. This is not about film sitting in a commercial archive, or from which, published or not, somebody is trying to make some money. It is everything. The sort of stuff that has ended up with genealogical societies around the country and in libraries’ photographic collections will all fall under this. I realise that this does not apply to pre-1957 photographs, so it will not affect people doing research on the Second World War, but you will suddenly have this strange cut-off point. It would have been wise to keep greater flexibility in this so that the Minister, using,
“make different provision for different purposes”,
could have introduced a definition of which kinds of photograph or film were covered. It would not have been difficult to do.
Therefore, Amendment 8 should perhaps be withdrawn because it can be covered in the rest of the provisions, which says that he can then go on to reduce the duration of copyright in existing works. It is made by regulations. If you can do different provisions for different purposes, I would have thought there would be the flexibility to be able to meet the concerns of the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, and the perfectly valid commercial concerns, and also have done things for the libraries, universities, researchers and other people who want to do other things with the works where there was no commercial intent in the first place. Therefore, I would accept Amendment 9 for flexibility, and if I were the Minister, I would withdraw Amendment 8.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, I echo the initial comments of the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, on this. The Minister has again shown his willingness to listen to some of the concerns that have been expressed on this matter. I welcome the two amendments in this group, although I note the points recently made, which may bear further thought. However, the Government are in the right place on this. It is a question of sticking to where we are and recognising that.
We should also recognise that this has been a complicated journey through these legislative clauses. Copyright is never an easy issue to get into. I am sure that the noble Lord would recognise that; he has always looked a bit punch-drunk when we have had discussions on it but has come up smiling, which is one of his nice characteristics. However, there are a number of difficult and complex issues underneath this. They are not going to be resolved by what is in the Bill, although we have caught up in a number of areas and that is good. This is really about setting up discussions that we will have to have in this House and another place as the various changes that are being provoked by the Hargreaves report are brought forward as what are in generic terms called “copyright exceptions”. They of course deal with a large number of issues that could have been, as we have argued, contained in this Bill but have been left deliberately to secondary legislation. That is not to say that we will necessarily agree with everything that we see when that comes through. There have to be a lot of complicated discussions on some of these points. We welcome the opportunity to have those, based on where we are now. On that basis, I am happy to agree with these amendments.
Baroness Brinton
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Howarth of Newport, for these two amendments, which are very helpful in trying to balance and find a bridge between the two very distinct sides of the argument that we have seen during the various stages of this Bill—and, in particular, the problems already outlined about whether arrangements for orphan works will work. I am grateful, too, to my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones, for saying that Amendment 10 might be helpful to all parties. I hope that the Minister can give us some encouragement on that.
On Amendment 11, I wanted to point out that I am as concerned as the noble Lord about a large amount of licence fees sitting in a large black hole and then returning to the Government in whatever form as a double taxation. My only question—I apologise as it is rather a technical one, but I saw the amendment only earlier today—is about the five years of royalty payments. If it goes into bona vacantia, how long does it have to sit there before it is released into general Treasury funds? Is it another blocking account? I recognise that the proposal refers to “bona vacantia or otherwise”, and that “otherwise” might refer to the general coffers of the Treasury. It would be helpful to know. My only suggestion to the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, is that five years might be too short a period to search for authors of orphan works.
The Earl of Erroll
My Lords, I support both amendments, which were spoken to most ably by the noble Lord, Lord Howarth of Newport. The noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, also made comments that were absolutely right on the nail.
A review is only sensible. An awful lot of the figures should be obtainable from the licensing authorities, whoever is going to be appointed, on the financial stuff, how much is done, and so on. I do not imagine that it will require a huge amount of public money to try to do a review at whatever period is thought best.
As a taxpayer, I am concerned about the up-front fees. The noble Lord, Lord Howarth, almost did not stress that point enough. The notion is that those fees should be set at a rate that means that orphan works do not undercut stuff that might be in a commercial library of works that people can license. They would probably not be on the same subject in most cases; they would be for different purposes. If one of the big national libraries or a university was trying to prepare a work of academic interest, they would not rush around paying fortunes to these libraries that have collections of pictures or text. They cannot do that; they will not have the budget for it. If someone was to look at what this stuff was currently sold for, or licensed for, we could be talking about a huge sum of money going into the bodies collecting for orphan works. We are not talking about a petty million, or something like that.
A department always expands to spend the money provided, so if it is going to be ploughed into trying to collect these things will get enormous and complex, and they will spend money like water. On the subject of BIS sponsoring training programmes, well, we know what happens with most government training programmes, so just to get the point across and to see the horror on the Minister’s face, I volunteer to be either one of the societies collecting the money so that I can have a huge scheme, or one of the chief accredited training agencies, because this will be a licence to print money.
The point is well made by the noble Lord, Lord Howarth. The funding of universities and libraries and institutions like that, which this provision is aimed at, comes out of public or charitable funds, and it is there for a purpose. The concept that this is a hidden tax that then goes back to the Exchequer or to fund a nice quango or whatever is totally unethical. I cannot put that strongly enough. If the public woke up to the fact that that was happening, they would be absolutely horrified, so the Minister would be incredibly well advised to accept this amendment to protect the Government from all sorts of accusations in future—unless, of course, they do not expect to be in power by the time this happens and think that another Government will take the flack. However, given that most politicians think they will still be in power, if I were them I would protect myself.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, my noble friend Lord Howarth, when introducing this amendment, mentioned that in Parliament as a whole there was a genuine sense that issues to do with copyright were dealt with in a non-partisan way, and he explained some of the background to the CDP Act 1988 and to the Digital Economy Act. This debate has shown that the spirit lives on. I stress that I do not think that this is a partisan issue; we are all very interested in this new and broadly welcome provision, which anticipates the EU directive and perhaps gold-plates it a little. However, there is no doubt that we need an orphan works scheme. It is right that it should be introduced and we are backing it all the way. Within that it is absolutely clear that rights holders must be remunerated if they wish. However, as many of them will not be easy to find, a diligent search of a high standard must be carried out. I recognise that the way to prove all that is to create this escrow account approach, and that that should be done for a reasonable period. However, the more one listens to the points that are made round here, the more one feels that this is going in the wrong direction in this respect. As virtually all speakers have said, surely it cannot be in the best interests of the Government to tax the institutions that are expected to carry out this work and mainly benefit from it. That cannot be right. The Minister was reported in Hansard as saying that if the escrow funds were building up and not being used, they could be used to defray the costs of running the licensing body, to pay for preservation costs and for training. However, that escrow funding is the money that would be paid to rights holders, so it does not really belong to the licensing body to do with it as suggested.
We are at the fringe of moving in the wrong direction here. It would be sensible if the Government were to pause and think about this again. This is a good scheme and is the right thing to do, but perhaps there is a way in which one can retain the funds that are going to be held for potential rights holders within the original institutions. At least then they would have the benefit of the money even if they could not allocate it, and the sensibility that this somehow was a taxation scheme would be avoided because it would not work. It would be the worst of all possible worlds if, at the end of this process of trying to get these proposals scheduled and incorporated in legislation, the whole scheme was stillborn because people could not see how it could be financed. I very much want to hear what the Minister has to say on this matter. Some movement towards the position of the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, would be much appreciated.