House of Lords Reform Bill [HL]

Debate between Earl of Caithness and Viscount Astor

Friday 10th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Steel and agree that common sense has broken out. I too would like to ask him a question about allowances: was any consideration given to allowances for the hereditary Peers who were removed in 1999?

My noble friend mentioned that no other amendment would be moved. The House knows that I have given him notice that I will move one amendment to seek clarification on what he has discussed with the Government since the Committee stage. In Committee he gave an assurance that he would discuss the matter of those who had been in prison. I shall not press the amendment; it is for elucidation and to get it on the official record

I am grateful, in particular, to my noble friends Lord Trefgarne and Lord Steel for working all hours last night and this morning to bring common sense to this legislation.

[Viscount Astor]

If I heard him right, the noble Lord, Lord Steel, said that he would not be speaking again on the Bill today. I hoped that he was referring to this Motion because, in Committee, I moved a number of amendments to Clauses 12, 15 and 16 and the noble Lord agreed to consider those amendments. I withdrew them and said that I would come back on Report. I hope that when I move them later, the noble Lord will feel able to respond to them.

House of Lords Reform Bill [HL]

Debate between Earl of Caithness and Viscount Astor

Friday 21st October 2011 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Caithness]

Could we have an answer to the question posed by my noble friend Lord Astor? That is quite relevant to our future discussions. Can we come back to this amendment or to my consequential amendment—which we are about to come to—when we debate the original amendment from which these consequential ones flow?

[Viscount Astor]

My Lords, while my noble friend on the Front Bench receives some advice, perhaps I could help your Lordships. I have amendments to Clause 5 in Part 1 of the Bill. I am confused: should we come to Clause 5 after we have dealt with Amendments 10 to 19? Will I be able to move amendments to those clauses? If my noble friend has received some expert advice, I would be grateful if he could answer that question.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, I apologise in advance as I may be a little longer on this amendment than I have been on others. That is because the amendment refers to referendums. I believe that a change in the constitution, such as this Bill proposes, should be the subject of a referendum. We are getting more and more used to referendums as part of our political landscape. The Local Government Act 2000 provided for the holding of referendums to enable electors of individual local authorities to express their preferences for the type of executive arrangements within their council. The 2001 Regional Assemblies (Preparation) Bill also allowed for the holding of referendums.

The House is currently considering the Localism Bill, which has a huge number of Liberal Democrat amendments—I can see my noble friend Lord Steel nodding, whether in sadness or pleasure I am not certain. Under Schedule 6 to the two tomes of that Bill one sees a huge amount about “Council tax referendums: further amendments”. A referendum was also agreed in Section 6—headed, “Decisions requiring approval by Act and by referendum”—of the European Union Act 2011, which my noble friend Lord Howell of Guildford took through. Earlier this year there was also, of course, the referendum on the alternative vote system, with the quite remarkable and wonderful result that it was not agreed. We are getting increasingly used to referendums.

This is a constitutional Bill of some importance. The most important bit is the one we have agreed which will break the 1999 agreement on the succession of hereditary Peers until a further reform of the House of Lords takes place. If this Bill is important enough to break that agreement then it is important enough to prompt a referendum.

Amendment 138 states:

“Her Majesty must by Order in Council, on the advice of the Prime Minister, cause a referendum to be held”.

We then move on to the schedule and the consequential amendments. The schedule comes after Clause 19 and sets out the details of the referendum. I have to admit that I have copied this from the referendum amendment put forward for the Scotland Bill, which is also before your Lordships’ House. But I have proposed amendments to my amendment to take into account the fact that we would have a Joint Committee. We have not yet discussed the Joint Committee. The purpose of bringing it in—which I had hoped we would discuss earlier today—is that the Government proposing doing so in their draft reform Bill, which is in front of the Joint Committee of both Houses. We are caught up in a mess as a result of the rearrangement this morning because the amendments to my amendment concern something that we have not yet discussed. In view of what my noble friend Lord Shutt said, perhaps it would be wise for me not to move the amendments to my amendment until we have discussed the Joint Committee. However, I think that this is a cack-handed way of trying to discuss legislation. It is impossible to do it rationally.

I shall take noble Lords quickly through the schedule. There is, of course, the “Entitlement to vote”, which I hope does not cause any problems. We then deal with the conduct of the referendum and the “Referendum question and statement”. That is an important part of the schedule because the Order in Council,

“must specify the question to be included”.

We then come to the date of the referendum, and following that the “Referendum period”, which must be determined by the Order in Council. We then have “Combination of polls”, the encouragement of voting and the “Provision of information to voters”. It is important that one provides the correct information. Indeed, my noble friend Lord Steel probably knows more about referendums than I do, but my noble friend Lord Norton of Louth is probably the man to check that I have all of this right and to his satisfaction. The schedule goes on to deal with “Referendum material” and “Funding and accounts”. It deals with legal challenges to the referendum because they could well take place, followed by the “Supplementary” and “Interpretation” provisions. That in brief is the schedule before us. The principle of this is that there should be a referendum when it comes to constitutional reform. I beg to move.

[Viscount Astor]

My Lords, while I sympathise with my noble friend, I have to say that if I thought that the Bill brought forward by the noble Lord, Lord Steel, was as groundbreaking as my noble friend Lord Caithness points out, perhaps we could consider a referendum. But I have to say to my noble friend that I do not think that that is the case, and I really do not think that it justifies a referendum.

The more interesting issue here is that we do not know whether the committee looking into reform of the House of Lords is going to be able to keep to its timetable, or indeed whether the Government will produce a Bill for the reform of the House of Lords in this Parliament. It may be that they will wait until the next Parliament under whatever Government they are—I assume it will be a Conservative Government—and it is quite likely, if that is the case, that both major parties and indeed the Lib Dems will set out in their manifestos that they favour a wholly or largely elected second Chamber. If all three parties have that in their manifestos, there really is no chance for the country to have a view on it, because there will be no basis on which to have an alternative view on whether this House should be elected or appointed. It is not as if one can choose to say of one party, “I’ll vote for that because they put it forward”. In that case a referendum might be very worthwhile in deciding whether this nation really wants an elected second Chamber, with all the effect that that will have on another place and the way we manage the constitution of this country.

--- Later in debate ---

[Viscount Astor]

I did realise that, and I apologise to the noble Lord for not getting my amendment exactly right, but my purpose was to ask why Part 3 did not come into force straightaway. My noble friend has given me somewhat of an answer which clarifies the matter.

[The Earl of Caithness]

I remind my noble friend Lord Astor that it is up to the person who introduces the Bill to get the amendments correct. We are not legal draftsmen as mere Back-Benchers. With a government Bill, I often had to accept amendments that were technically incorrect or had subsequent consequential amendments. It was the will of the House that the principle was agreed to and then it was sorted out later. My noble friend Lord Astor should not be penalised for making that little mistake.

[Viscount Astor]

Well, I am grateful for support wherever I can get it. I am grateful, too, to my noble friend Lord Steel for his explanation, which I think I understand. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.