Wild Animals in Circuses (No. 2) Bill

Earl of Caithness Excerpts

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 3rd July 2019 Grand Committee

[Baroness Parminter (LD)]

My Lords, I heard what the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, had to say about why this is a starred manuscript amendment, but given that it is exactly the same as the amendment that was tabled in the Commons by Philip Davies MP, I find it somewhat surprising. I stand here representing the Liberal Democrat Benches. My noble friend Lady Bakewell is undergoing an operation today, so I am afraid noble Lords will have to put up with me for a short while on Defra matters.

We support the reasons why the amendment was turned down in the Commons, where the Minister made it clear that there would be guidance on these matters. We support that guidance, which will allow courts the flexibility to determine these matters in a manner they see fit. On that basis, I wish not to support the amendment and I hope that we can get through these amendments as quickly as possible.

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, I too apologise to the Committee for missing Second Reading, as I was abroad at the time. In that debate my noble friend Lord Gardiner said,

“I think that wild animals in circuses, whether they are trained well or not, are trained for our entertainment and amusement”.—[Official Report, 19/6/19; col. 806.]


When I looked at the Bill, I fully understood what he was driving at. But I am concerned about the unintended consequences of this, as the noble Lord, Lord Trees, was when he mentioned them at Second Reading, so I decided that I would look up what “circus” meant. My vision of a circus is not necessarily what the definition of it is. A circus is defined as,

“a travelling company of entertainers such as acrobats, clowns, trapeze artistes, and trained animals”,

or,

“a public performance given by such a company”,

or,

“an oval or circular arena, usually tented and surrounded by tiers of seats, in which such a performance is held”.

Given the advice I have received, that definition covers showgrounds. A showground moves from place to place; it has tiers; it is an oval; and wild animals are in it. When my noble friend the Minister deals with his guidance, can he make it clear that falconry, county shows and such things are excluded from this provision? I hope he will be able to confirm this now because I think it was queried at Second Reading, but he never gave the answer. For me, it is a question of the definition. I had not seen it, other than in the advice I was given, but it seems that this point needs to be clarified so that we do not stray into territory that I know my noble friend does not want to get into.

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns (Con)]

My Lords, I spoke at Second Reading and like the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, I have read the full debates in another place. It is clear that this matter was fully debated there, and it was right that it should be. My noble friend Lord Mancroft has raised an issue on which there was much exchange in another place, but it gives us the opportunity today to hear reassurance from my noble friend the Minister about guidance. That is important, so in that respect my noble friend Lord Mancroft has done the Committee a favour.

However, I am concerned about attempts to impose further definitions in the Bill. This is for some of the reasons debated in another place, one of which has already been mentioned by my noble friend Lord Caithness. One does not wish to see definitions used in ways that are so prescriptive that they do not catch the people who should be covered by the Bill—those in travelling circuses who in future should not have wild animals—or so broad as to bring within the remit of the Bill those who use falconry displays for educational services. I declare an interest, in that I have watched at least two of those at the Royal Horticultural Society garden at Wisley, near where I live, and they were extremely educative not only for young people but for me. There is also the matter of county shows, which I attended regularly when I was our Front-Bench spokesman on agriculture in opposition.

I can see the benefit of there being a definition in the Bill. I believe the Government have found one which gives effect to the prohibitive provisions we wish to have, without extending them to activities which should not be covered by the Bill. I hope that my noble friend the Minister will affirm his commitment to guidance and reassure the Committee that the current definition properly delivers, as I expect it does, the changes that were received with great agreement around the House at Second Reading.

--- Later in debate ---

The Government feel that the amendment is neither necessary nor desirable. As I said at Second Reading and earlier to the Committee, we will produce detailed Defra guidance to assist inspectors and circuses and set out the types of activities that we consider will and will not be covered by the ban. For these reasons, I very much hope that my noble friend will withdraw his amendment.

[The Earl of Caithness]

I am grateful for what my noble friend said; I am sure that my friend, the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, will be only too pleased that it is now officially on the record. My noble friend has gone further than he did at Second Reading, and it is much better for it to be on the record than just said in a formerly smoke-filled room.

[Lord Mancroft]

My Lords, I am most grateful to all noble Lords who took part in the debate. Although I was not at Second Reading, as I said earlier, I read it carefully, of course, so it is not complete news to me. Of course, I accept fully what the Minister says. However, I have always thought that it is better to put things like this in the Bill rather than in guidance. Apart from anything else, courts like clarity, and something is a great deal clearer in the Bill than in guidance.

I understand too that the object of the Bill is narrowly focused on travelling circuses. I still wrestle with why it is so appalling to be in a travelling circus, but it is perfectly all right to own something or use it for films or TV. Presumably, these animals will have to travel to the TV or film set, just as they do when they are travelling with a circus. I wonder if the zebus or zebras will know whether they are in a circus or part of an educational visit—I wonder whether I would know that.

Nevertheless, in the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.