House of Lords Act 1999 (Amendment) Bill [HL]

Earl of Caithness Excerpts

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Friday 9th December 2016 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, as I have my name to this amendment I would like to say a few words and follow up the closing words of my noble friend Lord Strathclyde—and this was not planned. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, that if he withdraws the Bill we will be very happy not to move any further amendments at all.

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

--- Later in debate ---

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, the whole situation in which we were going to discuss the Bill has changed as a result of the useful debate that we had on Monday. We did not all agree but at least we were able to express our views without some of the intolerance that is creeping into the Chamber today. Indeed, as my noble friend Lord Strathclyde said, there is a committee looking at this in the other place.

Mention has been made of the system of appointing hereditary Peers, and we have tabled amendments. The noble Lord, Lord Grocott, said at Second Reading—I apologise to him and to the House for not being able to be here for that—that the appointments system was beyond ludicrous. There is a very good argument for saying that, but we have amendments to make it considerably less ludicrous.

[Lord Grocott]

My Lords, the noble Earl was not here at Second Reading and he may not have read Hansard. I did not say that the appointments system was beyond ludicrous, I said that the current system of by-elections for hereditary Peers was beyond ludicrous.

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, I did read Hansard, and in fact I have it beside me—which is no surprise to the noble Lord because he knew that I would. Yes, he said that the succession system was beyond ludicrous. We have amendments down to make it less so and I hope that he will be able to accept them.

I am also against what the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, proposes because of what happened in 1999. I have spoken and written to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Irvine of Lairg, who was Lord Chancellor at the time—it was really his amendment rather than Weatherill’s. He had said:

“The amendment reflects a compromise negotiated between Privy Councillors on Privy Council terms and binding in honour on all those who have come to give it their assent”.—[Official Report, 30/3/1999; col. 207.]

My last letter to the noble and learned Lord was on 31 March 2014, when I wrote seeking elucidation as to what those words meant. I spoke to him afterwards and he said, “You’re not going to get an answer from me”, so I had to interpret them myself. I believe that those words “binding in honour” apply to all the 308 Peers who are still in the Chamber and were here during the debate in 1999, and they also apply to the 109 former MPs who were in the House of Commons when that debate took place and are now in this House. I believe that because they are binding in honour and the agreement was on Privy Council terms, it is not for me to break that agreement. Others may—that is up to them and their consciences—but for me it is a point of principle. What the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, wishes to do is a major constitutional change and I believe that major constitutional change should be undertaken by the Government, not by Back-Benchers.

This House has had an elected element for 273 out of the last 309 years. There was a gap between 1963 and 1999. Removing the hereditaries, which is the inevitable result of removing the succession to them, would leave a solely appointed House. That is not what the public want. The latest opinion poll that I could find shows that 60% of the public want an elected House. Those figures replicate earlier opinion polls.

An appointed House is not what the House of Commons wants either. It voted against it on 4 February 2003 by a majority of 78. There was an even larger majority on 7 March 2007 of 179. The Commons also voted for an elected Chamber. I know that did not come to pass in the 2012 Bill, but if that Bill had come to this House, I would have supported it because I have said in this House before that I am a firm believer in having an elected second Chamber and have voted for that. I support what the House of Commons said. Yes, let us remove all us hereditaries, but only on the condition that all the life Peers go too. Do not remove one without the other. I believe that keeping the hereditaries will help us to achieve a democratic, elected House sooner rather than later.

I discussed this with the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, over breakfast downstairs. He is entitled to his view, and he has been a firm and totally consistent advocate of an appointed House. I take a different view. I want an elected House, and I think that the retention of the hereditaries will bring that about sooner rather than later.

The appointment system has been criticised. If we remove the hereditaries with this Bill, we will be left with an appointment system. In 1999, my now noble friend Lord Cormack said:

“We are witnessing a crude exercise of patronage”.—[Official Report, Commons, 10/11/1999; col. 1200.]

If that was true in 1999, how much more true is it today?

The appointment system was condemned by many during our debate on Monday. Since 1997, 25% of those appointed to this House have been ex-MPs, and a further 7% have been affiliated to parties either by working in them or by taking party positions. That is more than 30%. I have tabled Amendment 45A, which seeks to draw attention to this. In order to help the House, I shall speak to it now.

I do not think that the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, would ever accept an amendment that restricted the appointment system to such a disproportionate percentage of former MPs. We have become the dumping ground for MPs.

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[The Earl of Caithness]

It is true, my Lords. Some 33% or 34% of those appointed are ex-politicians. We are a pretty good dumping ground. The appointment system has also failed us in that only 22% of appointments were women.

I am sorry that my noble friend Lord Cormack is going—I need to refer to him again. He is coming back; wonderful. Our average age now is 69 to 70. I took my seat here when I was 21. Where are the youth represented in this House? We have only two Members under 39, and 29 under 50. I do not think that is a good recommendation for an appointment system.

It seems to me that the best chance of getting into this House in future will be to become an MP. You could possibly increase your chances if you change party as an MP. I have a friend in Scotland who changed from the Conservative Party to the SDP-Liberal party; he was promised a peerage. He did not get it so he changed to the Labour Party. He was promised a peerage, but he did not get it. He is disillusioned with politics now. There is a serious point in there which we need to consider, and I hope it will come up as a result of Monday’s debate.

These words were spoken in 1999: the hereditaries are,

“the ones who sit in the second Chamber not as a result of patronage”.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, will the noble Earl tell the House how hereditaries got here in the first place? Were they elected or appointed by the monarch?

[The Earl of Caithness]

My ancestor was given a title. I cannot remember quite what it was for; I did not talk to him about it. It was 500 or so years ago. That is why I want to get rid of us—but I also want to get rid of the life Peers as well.

Let me continue. The important quote from 1999 is that,

“the House … will be the stronger, the more independent of patronage and the better”,

and:

“I believe without equivocation … that the House of Lords will be better for the 92”.—[Official Report, Commons, 10/11/99; cols. 1200-01.]

Those words were spoken by my now noble friend Lord Cormack, who clearly does not now believe that.

He is not the only former MP to change his mind about this House. On Monday, we heard a very good speech from the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, who admitted that when he was in the House of Commons he was totally ignorant about this House and did not pay any attention to it. I totally concur with that. When I was a Minister in the 1980s, I found that my Secretaries of State were not very conversant with the procedures of this House and found us an irritation—there were then far more hereditaries—but subsequently changed their mind.

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton (Lab)]

Will the noble Earl assist me? I wish to listen to all the arguments. Has he just regrouped the amendments in front of us? He has spoken to a later amendment. It would be helpful to the House if such groupings were made more formal.

[The Earl of Caithness]

I certainly apologise to the House for not grouping the amendment. I put the amendment down yesterday, which was rather later than I should have put it down. It came to my mind as a result of the debate we had on Monday.

As I said, my noble friend Lord Cormack is not the only one to have changed his mind about this House. The noble Lord, Lord Steel, when he was leader of the Liberal Party, carried the Asquith banner for the abolition of the House of Lords. When he came here, he had the chance to fulfil that, and we all hoped he would. The next leader, Mr Clegg, scuppered the next attempt to reform the House almost single-handedly. It was a great shame.

I warned the Lord Speaker—he is no longer my noble friend because he is the Lord Speaker—that I would refer to him. He quite rightly suggested when he took his position that the House of Lords was a little large. He was in favour of an elected House in 1999. He said so in the debate. He also voted for and against the amendment in the same year. It was at different times: one was February or March of 1999 and the other was in November. My noble friend Lord Hailsham voted against the amendment in 1999—but he stood for election as a hereditary Peer, so he obviously thought it was quite a good idea.

As my noble friend Lord Strathclyde said, the debate on Monday has brought a sort of consensus that all these areas need to be looked at. I remain of the opinion that keeping the hereditaries here will bring about a speedier and more radical reform of the House of Lords, which I firmly believe is needed.

[Lord Cromwell (CB)]

My Lords, I am the beneficiary of one of these by-elections, and that has made me very shy about participating in our debate today—even more shy than I normally am. I was in two minds right up to this morning as to whether I should do so. I know that a good number of others in my position are not here, partly because they are too anxious of being branded reactionary, whatever their actual position on House of Lords reform may be. Some of the barracking we are hearing probably means they were right. On balance, I have decided that, as a beneficiary of such a system, I ought to be able to stand here and debate it. There are certainly some points I would like to make, and we may get to those, but beyond that I would like to emphasise one thing: I am going to be guided by what emerges in the debate. That is how we should do things. I am not here as a wrecker; I am here to participate in a debate, as I hope we all are.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Grocott]

My Lords, the Government have stated their position, which has been consistent throughout. I never thought that they would throw their weight behind this Bill. However, I am frankly surprised at their reasoning. I do not think that the fact that they are having to sort out the economy and Brexit is a good reason for opposing a two-clause Bill, which I think has pretty universal support and would improve the workings of this House. However, the Minister’s reassurance may be enough for the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, to not ask the opinion of the House on the amendment that he has just moved, and thereafter not to move his further amendments, so that we get through the Committee stage of this Bill and then proceed to Report, if that is permitted. I do not think the Bill is likely to proceed to Report, and that is not something I feel pressed to pursue. However, I obviously regret the fact that it is unlikely to proceed further if the Government say so. Bearing in mind the knowledge of the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, in relation to the high death rate of Private Members’ Bills, from whichever House they emerge, I think that the ball is now in the court of the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne.

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, on putting in all four Tellers on the first amendment. He was, of course, beautifully educated by the late Walter Harrison, one of the great Whips of the Labour minority Government of the 1970s, and he must have learned at Mr Harrison’s knee. Indeed, there is an extremely good play, which I recommend to all your Lordships, in which this is portrayed. The noble Lord has learned the arts of government extremely well, as indeed he did when he was PPS to a former Prime Minister. That was complemented by his excellent term as Chief Whip in this House. Therefore, we have a lot to learn from the noble Lord on handling parliamentary procedure. Is he prepared to accept any amendments to his Bill to improve the way that hereditary Peers are elected? In other words, is he set in his view that the banning of succession is the only thing that matters, not trying to get the system to work better?

[Lord Grocott]

My view is diametrically opposed to that of the noble Earl, Lord Caithness. I can see no compromise. You cannot half hang a man—you either have the by-elections or you do not. The noble Earl thinks that we should have them. I think that we should not. The Government cannot support the Bill at the moment but I think we could conclude the Committee stage, given that the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, has been given the assurances that he sought from the Government. Therefore, we can conclude these proceedings in 10 minutes through the remaining amendments not being moved. I have been around a long time and I know that in practical terms that means the Bill can proceed no further.