Devolution (Scotland Referendum)

Debate between Dominic Grieve and Sadiq Khan

Tuesday 14th October 2014 Commons Chamber

[Sadiq Khan]

I am trying my best—as did the Leader of the House—to follow the rational plan and structure of the speech, but I shall return to the hon. and learned Gentleman’s question in a few moments.

I am proud of Labour’s record on constitutional reform. We can justifiably claim to be the party of constitutional reform, although it was not plain sailing. We learned from our experiences. We know a thing or two about what works and what does not work. We know about the importance of cross-party consensus to the success of constitutional change. The Leader of the House, as leader of the Conservative party, opposed the removal of any of the hereditary peers. We worked with him, and there are still 92 left, although we hope that they too will be gone soon. We learned from things that did not work, such as the failed referendum on a regional assembly in the north-east of England. We also know that there is unfinished business, most notably in regard to House of Lords reform.

[Mr Grieve]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Sadiq Khan]

Let me make some progress first. I will give way to the right hon. and learned Gentleman shortly, because he has been very patient.

We have long known that devolution to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland would have an impact on England, and would require a response to help to address the imbalances in our constitution. We can call it the West Lothian question or the English question—we can call it whatever we want—but there is undoubtedly an issue, and it will need to be addressed. It is not a new issue; it was around in the 1880s during the Gladstone Home Rule debates, in the 1960s when Home Rule in Northern Ireland was debated, and in the 1970s. However, we need to address the present-day declining trust in Westminster, and the widespread feeling of disempowerment.

[Mr Grieve]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Sadiq Khan]

Of course I will give way to the former Attorney-General.

[Mr Grieve]

I participated in the debates on devolution in the late 1990s, and the West Lothian question was discussed then. As the right hon. Gentleman will remember, Lord Irvine said that the best solution to the West Lothian question was not to ask it. In fact, one of the reasons the devolution settlement has not worked overall—and this applies throughout the United Kingdom—is that the right hon. Gentleman’s party, when in government, consistently refused to look at the total picture. The question now is whether, in opposition, his party will be willing to face up to the consequences, and try to create something that will command support throughout our country. We on this side of the House are prepared to do the work, but it seems to me that the right hon. Gentleman is avoiding that question.

[Sadiq Khan]

I have a huge amount of respect for the former Attorney-General, but I am afraid that it is inconsistent to accuse us on the one hand of failing to look at the total picture and on the other hand to suggest a Westminster stitch-up.

Clearly, part of the solution is greater devolution within England, and that has been at the centre of Labour’s policy review: reversing a century of centralisation with radical plans to devolve power and responsibility downwards.

Injunctions

Debate between Dominic Grieve and Sadiq Khan

Monday 23rd May 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Attorney-General]

Let me respond to my hon. Friend’s reference to individual cases by saying that he will not be surprised if I am not drawn into commenting on the matter. What I can say is that widespread public interest and, indeed, disquiet have been expressed about the events of the past few weeks and days, and that—as the report by the Master of the Rolls clearly showed—they raise the question of how a person’s privacy can be balanced against the requirement for the public to be properly informed, and also the question of how injunctions may be enforced. I would add, however, that the courts have power to punish those who breach injunctions, and those who decide flagrantly to do so should bear that in mind when they embark on such a course.

The question of parliamentary privilege is not a new issue. While it is fully recognised that we have complete privilege in this Chamber to say what we like—and the Lord Chief Justice reiterated that in the clearest and most unequivocal terms in his comments last Friday— the question of the extent to which communication between a constituent and a Member of Parliament is covered by parliamentary privilege remains uncertain. What is entirely clear is that—from the judiciary’s point of view as much as those of the Government and Parliament—that is an undesirable state of affairs, which is undoubtedly susceptible to both clarification and rectification if the will is there for that to be done.

[Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab)]

I thank the Attorney-General for his answer to the urgent question. I also thank the committee chaired by the Master of the Rolls for its report.

Will the Committee that the Prime Minister is to establish be a Joint Committee consisting of the Culture, Media and Sport and Justice Committees, and how soon will it report?

Until now, the Government’s position on this issue has been a muddle. The Attorney-General may be aware that I raised the issue last week during Justice questions, when I reminded the Lord Chancellor about the importance of balancing freedom of expression with an individual’s right to privacy. I also asked the Government to give clarity and guidance on an issue that has become increasingly confusing and where Parliament has been slow to act. In response, the Lord Chancellor said that

“it is probably right that Parliament passing a privacy Act might well be the best way of resolving the issue”.—[Official Report, 17 May 2011; Vol. 528, c. 137.]

However, on the following day the Culture Secretary said:

“I don’t believe a privacy law is the way forward.”

The Government appear to be at sixes and sevens on their policy on privacy injunctions and freedom of the press. Will the Attorney-General clarify their position?

Does the Attorney-General believe that a new privacy law is needed? If so, how will it differ from article 8 of the Human Rights Act 1998? He will be aware that super-injunctions and anonymised orders should apply only in exceptional cases. There is a concern that they are being applied for, and granted, too readily. Does the Attorney-General believe that this report will address those concerns, and how soon will the Committee report?

Does the Attorney-General believe that the sanctions for those who break injunctions are sufficient? What are the Government’s views on how the right to privacy can be balanced with the growing usage of internet-based communications such as Twitter?

Finally, being able to speak freely in the House of Commons and House of Lords is an essential part of parliamentary scrutiny. Can the Attorney-General confirm that the Government will not allow this principle to be undermined in any way?

[The Attorney-General]

I shall deal, so far as I can, with each point in turn. First, the Government have made it clear that it will be a Joint Committee, and have asked

“Business Managers to establish a Joint Committee of both Houses to consider these issues. The remit will be to advise the Government on how current arrangements can be improved and put on a more sustainable footing, aiming to report in the autumn.”

The Government have also

“asked the Justice Secretary and Culture Secretary to liaise…on the Terms of Reference.”

The right hon. Gentleman’s second question was about privacy law. It is undoubtedly the case that it would be open to this House to enact a privacy law, if it wished. However, I have to say to the right hon. Gentleman that he misquoted my right hon. Friend the Culture Secretary, as what he actually said was:

“We’re not minded to have a new privacy law but we’re not ruling out the need for legislative changes.”

If I may say so, it is possible to have legislative change without necessarily having a full-blown privacy law, and this seems to me to be precisely the sort of issue that the Committee will need to consider, and in a measured and sensible fashion.

The right hon. Gentleman rightly raised the question as to whether a privacy law would make any difference to the existing arrangements. That, too, is an interesting subject for both legal and political debate, and it is precisely because that needs to take place that the suggestion has come forward that this is the best way in which to proceed.

Finally, the right hon. Gentleman asked a number of questions about enforceability. It has been clear for some time in a number of different spheres that the enforceability of court orders and injunctions presents a challenge now that information can rapidly be posted on the internet, but that does not necessarily mean that the right course of action is to abandon any attempt at preventing people from putting out information that may, in some circumstances, be enormously damaging to vulnerable people or, indeed, be the peddling of lies.