Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Dominic Grieve and Jeremy Corbyn

Tuesday 4th June 2013 Commons Chamber

[The Attorney-General]

First, I advise any Minister, Cabinet Committee or, indeed, taskforce if that advice is required. Secondly, as I suspect the right hon. Gentleman knows, I have had quite a lot of involvement in considerations of whether contempt of court, for example, is taking place, or whether issues may arise in respect of misuse of the internet. I can be in a position to help my colleagues in Government on all those things, but the policy lead will obviously lie elsewhere.

[Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)]

Obviously, libellous or criminal messages on social media are illegal and wrong, and action can be taken on them. However, can the Attorney-General assure us that he will be cautious about proposing excessive controls on social media, which are an important form of free expression for many people of different opinions and views who want to communicate with each other? It is the modern form of communication, particularly for younger people in our society.

[The Attorney-General]

Yes. Although the final guidelines will, I hope, be useful, I refer the hon. Gentleman to the interim guidelines published by the DPP. Those make it clear that there is a distinction that one should try to draw. Such material may be, for example,

“Satirical, or iconoclastic, or rude comment”

or

“the expression of unpopular or unfashionable opinion”

where no action should be taken, even if it is offensive, shocking or disturbing. Equally, there will be cases where an individual is specifically targeted, or where the activity may amount to a breach of court order, or may involve threats of violence or material that is

“grossly offensive, indecent, obscene or false.”

In those circumstances, action will be taken. I assure the hon. Gentleman that within the Crown Prosecution Service there is a strong understanding of the need to preserve the right to freedom of expression.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Dominic Grieve and Jeremy Corbyn

Tuesday 26th March 2013 Commons Chamber

[The Attorney-General]

My hon. Friend is right to say that the United Kingdom has not been uncritical of the way in which the European Court of Human Rights has operated. That is why we initiated the negotiation with other countries which led to the Brighton declaration. We believe that the principles of subsidiarity should be re-emphasised, that the selection of judges should be improved and that the backlog of the Court needs to be addressed. Those are important reform packages. We were successful in getting agreement on them last year, and we intend now to see that they are implemented.

[Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)]

Does the Attorney-General agree that it is simply not possible or right to start picking and choosing which decisions of the European Court of Human Rights we agree or disagree with? We are signed up to that charter, which guarantees the human rights of people all over Europe, including in this country. Surely that is something of which we should be proud rather than trying to undermine it all the time, as many of his Back Benchers consistently do.

[The Attorney-General]

The convention is an international legal obligation that we take extremely seriously and I have no doubt that our adherence to it is extremely helpful in raising standards of human rights elsewhere and in countries that have much poorer track records. The advantages to be derived from such an international legal obligation applied across countries need to be weighed in the balance when people are critical of how it is sometimes interpreted.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Dominic Grieve and Jeremy Corbyn

Tuesday 20th November 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

The right hon. and learned Gentleman’s answers are invariably works of scholarship, from which no matter that he judges could be of any conceivable interest would ever be excluded.

[Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)]

Does the Attorney-General agree that there are two good reasons why we should implement legislation on prisoners’ voting rights? Firstly, we would be adhering to our obligations under the European convention on human rights. Secondly, it is a useful part of the rehabilitative process that prisoners do not lose all their rights when they go to prison, but rather lose their liberty. The opportunity to vote is actually quite helpful, as the South Africans have found out now that they have universal voting rights for prisoners.

[The Attorney-General]

On the latter point, the hon. Gentleman may be correct. That is a matter for robust debate, which this House has had and may well continue to have on this subject. On the former point, it is right to say that the UK has always, in modern times, adhered to its international obligations. There are good reasons why a country should adhere to its international obligations, such as to set an example and to provide international confidence. Ultimately, of course, it is a matter for the House to determine.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Dominic Grieve and Jeremy Corbyn

Tuesday 16th October 2012 Commons Chamber

[Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)]

10. What assessment he has made of progress in reforming the European Court of Human Rights; and if he will make a statement.

[The Attorney-General (Mr Dominic Grieve)]

Good progress has been made in clearing the backlog of inadmissible cases before the Court. As the hon. Gentleman will be aware, the Government have approached the need to reform the European Court of Human Rights through the Brighton declaration. Reaching agreement on the declaration represents a substantial step towards realising the Government’s ambitions, particularly on the extent to which the Court should get involved in questions that national courts have already fully considered. We need now to ensure that the reforms are implemented swiftly. The first key step—preparation of a draft protocol to reflect the required amendments to the convention—is due to be completed by April 2013.

[Jeremy Corbyn]

I thank the Attorney-General for that answer, but will he give a complete and categorical assurance to the House that there is no question of Britain withdrawing from the European convention on human rights? Doing so would mean being the only country, alongside Belarus, that was not part of the convention, which has performed an important role in promoting and defending human rights across every one of its member states. We should be part of that process, not turn away from it.

[The Attorney-General]

I entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman. There is no question of the United Kingdom withdrawing from the convention. We helped to draft it and we support it strongly. It has already contributed to widespread changes across Europe, including the decriminalisation of homosexuality, the recognition of the freedom of religion in the former Soviet countries, the prevention of ill treatment in police stations and elsewhere, and the removal of military judges from civilian courts. Those are all very good reasons for it continuing its very good work.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Dominic Grieve and Jeremy Corbyn

Tuesday 7th February 2012 Commons Chamber

[The Attorney-General]

I am sure that my right hon. Friend’s sentiments would be echoed by most member states that are asking for reform to take place. At the same time, I want to make it clear that any reform package must still leave autonomy for the European Court of Human Rights. Its own processes must be reformed, and it must have control of them. Those issues are being examined, and I hope that the reform package that we will initiate will make a real and substantial difference to how the Court can approach its work load and continue doing its important work.

[Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)]

In his reforms to the European Court of Human Rights, will the Attorney-General ensure that we do not end up by default making it much more difficult for people bringing human rights abuse cases from, say, Russia, Hungary or other places where there are serious abuses of human rights, by pushing them back to the national jurisdiction? The influence of the Court can be a force for good and help to curtail some of the most vile human rights abuses that are taking place across Europe.

[The Attorney-General]

The hon. Gentleman will be aware that we share his view that the Court has been of immense benefit in member states across the European continent in improving human rights standards. In that context, as I have indicated, there can be no suggestion that the right of personal petition, for example, should be removed. Although we need to ensure that the Court keeps its autonomy, there is widespread acknowledgment that there must be reform if it is to continue doing its work properly.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Dominic Grieve and Jeremy Corbyn

Tuesday 20th December 2011 Commons Chamber

[Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)]

1. What recent discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for Justice on reform of the European Court of Human Rights.

[The Attorney-General (Mr Dominic Grieve)]

I have regular discussions with the Justice Secretary, during which we talk about a large number of issues of concern to both of us, including the reform of the European Court of Human Rights.

[Jeremy Corbyn]

Does the Attorney-General agree that the European Court of Human Rights and the European convention on human rights are very important safeguards of the rights and liberties of people all over the Council of Europe area, and that any diminution of British participation or support, or acceptance of the Court’s rulings, would be damaging to the human rights of people in this country and would, of course, diminish the value of the Court, which is one of the great achievements of post-war Europe?

[The Attorney-General]

I entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman that both the Court and the convention are of great importance to the United Kingdom, and I also agree that it is important that the United Kingdom should play a full part in the work of the convention and the work of the Court. As the hon. Gentleman will be aware, we currently have the chairmanship of the Council of Europe, and during that time we are seeking to take forward and implement a reform programme for the Court which will enhance its efficiency and effectiveness and particularly enable it to address the vast backlog of cases that it is facing.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Dominic Grieve and Jeremy Corbyn

Tuesday 15th November 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Attorney-General]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right that the backlog is now nearly 160,000 cases. It results in long delays for applicants, including many victims of serious violations, and effectively threatens to deny them access to justice. The Government are determined to try during our chairmanship to secure agreement to a set of efficiency measures that will help the Court deal with the backlog. In particular, we want to develop practical measures to strengthen subsidiarity. Primary responsibility for implementing the convention falls on national authorities in the Council of Europe’s member states, and the Court’s role should properly be to act as a safeguard for cases where a national authority fails to implement the convention properly. I think that that can be done without removing the right of individual petition, which is an important safeguard in countries that are members of the Council but where the human rights record is not good.

[Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)]

In view of the Attorney-General’s last answer, what pressure will Britain bring to bear during its chairmanship on eastern European countries where the treatment of Travellers, Gypsies and Roma people is so appalling and where many of them are unable to access local courts, never mind national ones, so that what happens in the European Court of Human Rights is completely beyond them? Does he not accept the need to pressurise those national Governments who are signatories to the European convention?

[The Attorney-General]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right that all 47 members of the Council of Europe need to observe the terms of the convention. If there were no violations of the convention, no successful cases would be brought before the Court. There are mechanisms—the Committee of Ministers is one—for enforcing judgments that have been handed down and preventing clone cases from coming back again and again and cluttering up the Court. Individual countries can try to take a lead, as I am sure the United Kingdom can, and of course the Human Rights Commissioner is central in trying to improve standards. It is worth bearing it in mind that, despite the hiccups and difficulties, standards are improving overall, which is a measure of the extent to which the convention has been a great success.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Dominic Grieve and Jeremy Corbyn

Tuesday 11th October 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Attorney-General]

The courts always take the context in which an offence is committed into consideration in determining the appropriate sentence. Few people would disagree with the principle that it is a serious aggravating feature if an offence is committed in the midst of riotous assembly and general mayhem. As usual, if for any reason the courts have passed a sentence that is excessive or inappropriate in any way, it can be reviewed by the Court of Appeal. I am afraid that I cannot help my hon. Friend on the precise statistics. Quite apart from anything else, many cases are still coming into the courts in respect of behaviour and crime committed during the riots, and it is far too early to make a final assessment.

[Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)]

The Attorney-General assured the Justice Committee that he had given no guidance whatever to judges or magistrates on sentencing policy after the riots. Nevertheless, is he not concerned about the apparently disproportionate sentences that have been handed down to a lot of young people, which may of course be changed on appeal? Is he prepared to undertake a study so that we can see what has happened and find out how many young people who naively got involved in things that they should not have been involved in have been given wholly disproportionate sentences?

[The Attorney-General]

I appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s question, but I repeat what I said to the Justice Committee, which is that it is none of my business. It would be improper of me to express a view on individual cases and the sentencing done by judges. There are occasions when serious offences come to my office under the unduly lenient sentences referral scheme, which may be referred to the Court of Appeal. However, that does not really come into the picture in the matter that the hon. Gentleman raises. I have no doubt that how sentences have been passed in the post-riot period will be the subject of study in due course, as such things usually are. As I said in answer to my hon. Friend the Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis), many cases are still coming into the courts. The hon. Gentleman should bear in mind that there are currently cases before the Court of Appeal in respect of the riots, and it will doubtless be able to provide some guidelines.

Voting by Prisoners

Debate between Dominic Grieve and Jeremy Corbyn

Thursday 10th February 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Attorney-General]

My hon. Friend takes a very absolutist stance, although I have heard him utter such a view before. That is not Government policy, however.

[Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)]

Is not the fundamental issue that the European convention on human rights applies to everyone, including those who are in prison, and that when people are convicted they do not lose their convention rights? They have to suffer a penalty following conviction, but losing their right to vote is outwith the terms of the convention.

[The Attorney-General]

The hon. Gentleman makes a perfectly reasonable point. Indeed, in some countries, the removal of the right to vote effectively forms part of the sentencing exercise. However, that has not been part of our national tradition in this country. I will be interested to hear hon. Members’ reasoning in the debate. I assume that the underlying principle behind the ban—given that many people are convicted and not sent to prison—was that a person who was sent to prison had done something so antisocial towards the civil order that it was justified to remove their right to vote. Speaking personally, I have never thought that there was anything unreasonable about that approach, although I appreciate that some hold other views, including non-governmental organisations such as the Prison Reform Trust, which has argued powerfully in favour of giving prisoners the right to vote.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Dominic Grieve and Jeremy Corbyn

Tuesday 18th January 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Attorney-General]

The decision will be that of the Director of Public Prosecutions. As in all matters, if the DPP wishes to consult the law officers in relation to their superintendence, it will be open to him to do so.

[Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)]

Does the Attorney-General not agree that the reputation of the country would be better served if the current system whereby private individuals can seek prosecutions in the courts, or seek arrest warrants in the courts for crimes against humanity or war crimes, were preserved rather than taken away and handed over to public officials?

[The Attorney-General]

I think that the reputation of the country will be best preserved through proper and targeted work by the police and prosecutors to bring to justice those who have a case to answer. The reputation of the country will not be served if the use of private prosecutions is seen merely as a tool of harassment, and there is no proper outcome from an arrest.

Ian Tomlinson

Debate between Dominic Grieve and Jeremy Corbyn

Monday 26th July 2010 Commons Chamber

[The Attorney-General]

The right hon. Gentleman raises the question of whether an assault charge could have been brought while the investigation continued. I say simply that it could have been. The difficulty that might have arisen is that if that assault charge had been taken to conclusion through the courts during the period of the investigation and subsequently the material on which a manslaughter charge could have been based became apparent, it might then have been impossible to proceed with the manslaughter charge. I do not think that that matter can simply be overlooked.

I did not fully respond to the point put by the hon. Member for Hackney North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott) about the timing. I simply say this: there was an IPCC inquiry first of all, which took some months. By the time the Crown Prosecution Service got the material in this case, time had already gone on a fair bit. In those circumstances, I do not take the view from what I have seen that the CPS was in any way dilatory in trying to bring this matter to a conclusion.

[Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)]

Does the Attorney-General understand that a lot of people view his remarks today and his response to my hon. Friend the Member for Islington South and Finsbury (Emily Thornberry) with utter consternation? As my hon. Friend the Member for Hackney North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott) pointed out, this is a question of justice and of seeing justice to be done. If we are to have any confidence in the judicial system and in the ability of the Government or the CPS to mount a prosecution, something must happen in this case where a wholly innocent man was killed in broad daylight on the streets of London and no action appears to be imminent on this matter.