Proceedings during the Pandemic and Hybrid Scrutiny Proceedings

Desmond Swayne Excerpts

Tuesday 21st April 2020 Commons Chamber

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

The same rules apply to us as they do to everyone else. That is the whole point of what we are trying to do—facilitating working remotely but trying to ensure social distancing in this House.

As we began prayers and Mr Speaker walked in front of me, about a foot away, I noticed that someone said, “That’s not social distancing.” There will be occasions, even in this House, when social distancing is not kept to absolutely perfectly but is in the spirit of the rules—as long as we are making our best effort to ensure social distancing, hence the tape that has been put on the floor and the novel style of prayer card on the Benches to ensure that we are in the right places. That is completely in line with the guidance given to the rest of the country.

We have a twofold duty of leadership as Members of this House: one is to show that we are following the rules that apply to everyone else; and the other is to lead by example in showing that we are getting on with our essential work. With the proposals brought forward, we do both.

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

On the subject of leading by example on the rules that we have imposed on everyone else, I point out to the Leader of the House that we have never debated those rules. Those rules were implemented under legislation passed—presciently, as far as Orwell was concerned—in 1984, and we have never debated and explored them. Is that itself not shocking?

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

We had an opportunity to debate the emergency legislation. What we are doing today is ensuring the opportunity for debate, discussion and the Government’s being held to account. I am providing for my right hon. Friend what he is asking for before he even asked for it. I do not claim the capability of second sight and of knowing what he was going to ask for, but I am delighted that, thanks to your good offices, Mr Speaker, we are delivering for my right hon. Friend.

As I was saying, the motion will enable the Speaker to restrict the number of Members physically present in the Chamber to ensure that social distancing is met, and the motion will remain in force until 12 May. It is likely that arrangements may be modified following the motion tomorrow on a wider set of proceedings. These arrangements are temporary—that is part of the point—and for while the crisis lasts.

I have specific points on which I wish to provide reassurance. Paragraph 3 of section A of the motion reads:

“Following the conclusion of scrutiny proceedings, the House shall proceed with business set down to be taken at the commencement of public business and then with the main business.”

I alluded to this earlier: I wish to make it clear that such provision allows us to bring forward further motions this week that are procedural and necessary, including a motion to allow for substantive business. It is not the Government’s current intention to meet physically to debate legislation or other substantive matters; rather, we intend to wait until the House has agreed a way in which that business may be debated remotely.

Turning to section C, paragraphs 6 and 7, the motion gives the Speaker the power to vary the orders, having agreed that with the Leader of the House, which is me. That might seem a sweeping power, but it is entirely to ensure that Mr Speaker can react to any teething problems with the new procedures, so I hope that Members will consider it a sensible inclusion. It is not so that you and I, Mr Speaker, can set up some form of railroading of parliamentary procedures, and it has to be within the requirements of the motion agreed.

To conclude, Parliament has always evolved to make sure that it can work efficiently. Parliamentary procedure is not an end in itself but a means to allow the institution to function successfully. Any changes now will be temporary, for the period of the lockdown, because like many things, the Chamber works best when Members can meet in person. I hope the whole House can support these motions, so that the House can undertake its essential scrutiny, and we can then move to considering other vital business, including legislation.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

The problem is paragraph 6, Mr Speaker, which enables your own office to exclude Members from the Chamber when we are too many. That might make you very popular with those who are allowed in, but very unpopular with those of us who might be excluded. It is very unpleasant to put you, Mr Speaker, in that very difficult position.

I know that the provision only applies to periods of scrutiny, but I am looking for reassurance from the Leader of the House when it comes to debate and how we take forward legislation, because it is about the precedent we are now setting. It would be outrageous if Members elected to this House were unable to come and bring their concerns to this Chamber because there were already a sufficient number of Members within it when we come to debate, which I hope we shall, the extraordinary regulations that have been imposed on our citizens, and all the anomalies—and, indeed, absurdities —that are in them, let alone when we get to debate the question of when we lift those regulations. Just let us come to the debate on the actual imposition of those regulations; I am looking for some reassurance that when we come to consider the procedures that will apply as we take forward these matters, we will not have Members—properly elected by their constituents—being excluded from this Chamber.

Parliamentary Works Sponsor Body

Desmond Swayne Excerpts

Tuesday 24th March 2020 Commons Chamber

[Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP)]

If the right hon. Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh) wants to sit in the House of Lords, I am sure that will have been heard by those on the Treasury Bench. We know that one day, that ambition of his will be fulfilled—[Interruption.] Exactly—if he wanted to be on the sponsor body, he could have moved an amendment on that this evening. He could have divided the House, and who knows? With the attendance here, it might have even gone through on the voices to let him serve.

I join the Leader of the House in paying tribute to the Members who are leaving the shadow sponsor body—especially my hon. Friend the Member for Airdrie and Shotts (Neil Gray)—and I welcome those who are coming on to it. I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh East (Tommy Sheppard), who cannot be here, is thrilled at the prospect of being part of this project and will, as the Scottish National party has always done, keep an incredibly sharp eye on the use of public funds and the opportunity that this must present to modernise and reform the practices and procedures of the House of Commons, however it meets.

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

Oh no!

[Patrick Grady]

I am afraid so. It may disappoint the right hon. Member, but I notice that even their lordships up the back have new Division Lobbies in the Royal Gallery, because their current Division Lobbies would be completely unsuitable in the time of social distancing in which we live. We would be the same, so this will provide an opportunity, if these institutions are going to remain relevant into the 21st century, to make sure that they do, taking advantage of all the opportunities that R and R presents.

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

On that note, ought we not to properly have had scrutiny hearings for these hon. Members who are going to sit on the commission, so that we could ensure that they will not follow the lead that the hon. Member for Glasgow North (Patrick Grady) has just given? It is for the whole House to determine what its procedures are and ought to be, and not for some subset to design them into some new pleasure dome, or whatever they plan to construct as a consequence of spending all this money.

[David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP)]

There is a serious point to this. The whole reason that we have to sit this distance apart from one another is that, if one thing has been taught about the context of this House and coronavirus, it is that this place does not work in terms of public health. It does not work in terms of being a functioning Parliament, so while there was a degree of bombast there, which I am sure is only engineered on the part of the right hon. Gentleman, an element of pragmatism is required on the part of hon. Members, is it not?

[Sir Desmond Swayne]

This Chamber has survived many health emergencies, and I do not believe that we should design into the future the prospect of continuing viruses. Let us conquer the virus, rather than change procedures that have endured almost forever. I assure him that change is always for the worst.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

I call David Linden.

Business of the House

Desmond Swayne Excerpts

Thursday 5th March 2020 Commons Chamber

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

I join the right hon. Lady in sending our condolences to Lisa George. It is always a sadness when a former Member of this House dies, but obviously the greatest sadness is for the family and, as the hon. Lady says, may he rest in peace.

I agree with the hon. Lady on paying tribute to the Library. We are enormously well served by the Library, and I hope everybody will use World Book Day as an opportunity to spend more time reading. They might want to read a book on the Victorians, which is still available in all good bookshops, probably at a highly discounted price by now.

I want to answer the important question on Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe. Foreign Office officials in Tehran continue to lobby for the release of all dual national detainees, and I understand that the Iranian ambassador to the UK confirmed on Tuesday that Mrs Zaghari-Ratcliffe was in good health and that she would be granted temporary release, so there is some slight good news at this stage. However, her family have understandably said that they wish to keep her symptoms under review and undertake any further testing as necessary. I reiterate my thanks to the right hon. Lady for raising this every week.

Inevitably, given that a reshuffle took place relatively recently, the list of ministerial responsibilities is being worked on, and will be released as soon as practicable. The list of oral questions is also being worked on because of changes in departmental responsibilities. It is important that we have the right questions to allow the Government to be held to account properly.

As far as I am aware, the Windrush report has not yet been delivered to the Home Office, but I am sure that the Home Office will review it in the normal way once it has been. The right hon. Lady also asked about the Russia report. The Committee has not yet been set up, but I have no doubt that when it has been, it will rush to publish the report. However, I remind her that the Prime Minister has said that it will probably be much less exciting than people think it will be. The joy of waiting for it is, perhaps, greater than the reality of what it will contain—not that I have seen it.

The right hon. Lady raised the issue of the Post Office and Horizon. I am glad to say that the Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy Committee is to conduct a parliamentary investigation into this very troubling matter, and I think that that is the right way to go about it. Parliamentary Select Committee inquiries can be very swift and effective.

The right hon. Lady asked a number of questions about the coronavirus. There are some very important points to make in relation to people outside the House, and also to people inside it. On sick pay, the right hon. Lady is right: people can self-certify for seven days, but the Government are asking businesses in these circumstances to use the discretion that they have not to require a doctor’s note for the second seven days. I think most businesses will understand that. I also think it is worth giving reassurance to people who may be eligible for sick pay about its availability. As for those on zero-hours contracts, Citizens Advice recommends that they discuss the matter with their employers, because some of them may well be eligible for sick pay. So steps are being taken. There are eligibilities, and other benefits are available to people who are not eligible. It is important that the welfare system will be able to take care of people who self-isolate or who are suffering.

I am not going to dwell on the right hon. Lady’s disagreements with her local council. MPs often disagree with their local councils. As hers is a Conservative council, I am sure that it is absolutely marvellous, but I understand why a socialist Member of Parliament does not take the same view. That is a fairly routine aspect of political life. [Interruption.] I am being heckled by the right hon. Lady.

Let me now turn to the issue of Parliament and the coronavirus. Many Members may have read a report in The Times today, and I want to reassure them that there are no plans to close the House down.

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

Alleluia!

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

I am glad that there is such rejoicing at that suggestion.

Business of the House

Desmond Swayne Excerpts

Thursday 30th January 2020 Commons Chamber

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

With all these matters relating to Government expenditure, there is limited taxpayers’ money—the Government cannot pay for everything, and it will be a question of priorities as to whether this compensation is paid or whether money goes to other deserving and important causes. There is not unlimited money available.

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

Can we have a statement on Nigeria before Thursday’s debate, so that we can understand whether the exponential increase in Christian persecution there is a consequence of the country’s Government losing control or, more sinisterly, being in control?

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

There is no satisfying some people, including my right hon. Friend. We have the debate on Thursday, but in saying that, I do not want to underemphasise the importance of the issue, which is a very troubling one. It is one that the Government take very seriously, and the scale and severity of violations of freedom of religious belief in not only Nigeria but many parts of the world is something that the Government are taking up. The debate will be an opportunity for everybody to raise their concerns and for the Government to make a proper response.

Tributes to the Speaker’s Chaplain

Desmond Swayne Excerpts

Thursday 31st October 2019 Commons Chamber

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

It is a privilege to follow the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon).

The hon. Member for Ealing North (Stephen Pound) referred to the holy mass. What is the meaning of the word “holy”? Daily, at Prayers, we invoke the fellowship of the Holy Ghost. I know that the hon. Member for Strangford would say “Holy Spirit”, but I prefer to stick with the original words. I have no idea how to define “holy” or “holiness”, and I am satisfied that there is no satisfactory dictionary definition, but I know holiness when I have encountered it, and we have encountered it in the presence of Rev. Rose Hudson-Wilkin.

Business of the House

Desmond Swayne Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd October 2019 Commons Chamber

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

The hon. Lady raises an important point. Everybody in the Government wishes to see the Assembly brought back together, and the consequences of not having had an Assembly have been complicated for Northern Ireland in the Brexit process. I am reluctant, however, to trespass on the territory of the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland—[Interruption.] The hon. Lady tempts me, but she will get a better answer from my right hon. Friend than she will from me, so I hope she will forgive me. If it would be helpful, I will certainly seek a written response from the Northern Ireland Secretary. I reiterate what I said in my previous business statement: this Government take the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland not only seriously but as a fundamental statement of what our nation is, and we will do everything we can to support the United Kingdom.

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

I hate to be a pedant, but my recollection is that the souls of the upright and pure who preceded salvation actually ended up in Dante’s first circle. The events of this evening prove to us that we are all much further down in hell already.

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

I am reluctant to quibble with my right hon. Friend, but Dante cannot always be relied on for the theology of the Catholic Church.

Business Statement

Desmond Swayne Excerpts

Tuesday 15th October 2019 Commons Chamber

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

With regard to language, I have just been called pot by Mr Kettle, so I do not think I will worry about that unduly. With regard to the motion that I have announced to take place tomorrow, the hon. Gentleman is a very well-established Member of this House and he will know that it is a proceeding under an Act. Proceedings under an Act under Standing Orders are subject to 90-minute debates and they are allowed to come on after the moment of conclusion of the House.

On the Saturday sitting, I refer the hon. Gentleman to what I said earlier. Sittings on Saturday are highly abnormal. To have inconvenience three times in 70 years is not unreasonable and it will only happen if we have to have something, subject to what goes on in the European Council, to debate on Saturday. I think Members putting their duty to the House first, as we all try to do, do not find that an unreasonable or insupportable burden.

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

Was the Leader of the House as uncomfortable as I was a few moments ago to be surrounded by advocates and apologists for the Spanish judiciary, when some of our own are not that good? Perhaps we could debate that on Saturday.

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

I entered the record books for Parliament when I said that while no one was allowed to indulge in the floccinaucinihilipilification of our own judges, one was allowed to do so under Standing Orders and “Erskine May” for foreign judges. That is a freedom that this House is entitled to.

Business of the House

Desmond Swayne Excerpts

Thursday 4th April 2019 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

The brevity tsar himself, Sir Desmond Swayne.

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

You missed it, Mr Speaker, because your focus was properly on what was happening in the Chamber, but the prolonged demonstration in the Public Gallery was a function of the fact that, first, the police had to be called and, secondly, the police, frankly, have a different way of operating and different priorities. Our Doorkeepers are trained in the practice but no longer carry it out, because the House will not insure them. Can we have a statement next week on how this is to be remedied?

[Andrea Leadsom]

My right hon. Friend is absolutely right to raise this matter and I am tempted to mention the bare cheek of such a demonstration in the Public Gallery. The police certainly had to deal with a very sticky matter. I will be seeing the director general later today to talk about what more we can do.

Business of the House

Desmond Swayne Excerpts

Tuesday 26th March 2019 Commons Chamber

[Andrea Leadsom]

I reject what the hon. Gentleman says about the Government ignoring this House. It is, of course, as a result of the motion that was passed by this House on 14 March that we have an extension to article 50. As he knows well, as Leader of the House of Commons, I take very seriously my role to be Parliament’s voice in the Government.

On the options that will be brought forward tomorrow, what I can say to the hon. Gentleman is that, at this stage, we do not know which options will be debated and voted on, let alone which will pass. To use his analogy, my right hon. Friend the Member for West Dorset (Sir Oliver Letwin), the new Prime Minister for West Dorset, has not yet indicated that manifesto. Nor indeed has the right hon. Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn) indicated his manifesto. I think we need to wait for that advice. I do jest, in case any hon. Gentleman is determined to take offence at my joke there, Mr Speaker. I say that for clarity in this Chamber.

The second point is that any options passed by this House must be negotiable. They have to be deliverable in negotiations with the EU and they would also have to take account of how long those negotiations would take.

Finally, as my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister pointed out in the discussion yesterday, and as the shadow Brexit Secretary also made clear in the House, it would not be possible for different parties to accept proposals that their party manifestos rejected at the last general election. [Interruption.] The shadow Brexit Secretary was clear in the House yesterday that Labour would reject certain potential outcomes as inconsistent with the Labour manifesto. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Wallasey (Ms Eagle) shouts “Rubbish”, but she needs to talk to her Front Benchers. It is absolutely vital that this House delivers outcomes that are negotiable, feasible and in line with the will of the manifestos and the referendum on which we all stood.

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

If the measure was defeated or the Prime Minister stayed her hand, then the European Communities Act 1972 would cease to apply on Friday evening and we would be free, wouldn’t we?

[Andrea Leadsom]

My right hon. Friend is correct to say that a commencement order is required under section 25(4) of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 in order to give effect to the repeal. The timing of that commencement order will depend on the date we leave the EU. We need to commence the repeal of the 1972 Act on the date of our departure, which is either 12 April as things stand if the deal is not approved, or 22 May if the deal is approved.

Business of the House

Desmond Swayne Excerpts

Thursday 21st February 2019 Commons Chamber

[Andrea Leadsom]

If the hon. Gentleman had only realised, I put that deliberately on his paper in the hope that he might think that, as it would be 29 February, I might propose to him. Just continuing the love, Mr Speaker.

The hon. Gentleman says that I am more ERG than TIG, but he is the one who is desperate for independence, so perhaps he should be the one to go and join the Independent Group. He asks about the debate next week. I have certainly tried to make it clear that the Prime Minister will bring back the meaningful vote just as soon as she feels that she has accommodated the wishes of the House for the legally binding changes to the backstop that will mean that the Prime Minister’s withdrawal agreement and political declaration can be approved by the House. All Members need to take that incredibly seriously. It is not the Government’s policy to have no deal; it is the Government’s policy to have a good deal that works for the UK and our EU friends and neighbours. Should we agree to and pass the meaningful vote, we will swiftly be able to move to the withdrawal agreement Bill and give certainty to citizens and businesses right across the United Kingdom. It is in all our interests to do so.

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

When my right hon. Friend fills in her questionnaire on restoration, which is available in the Library, she will quickly discern from the questions that, far from preserving Barry and Pugin’s masterpiece, what is envisaged is the creation of Kubla Khan’s stately pleasure dome. When can we debate this matter and get it back on track?

[Andrea Leadsom]

I confess that my right hon. Friend has totally thrown me there. That is absolutely not my understanding at all. The idea of the restoration and renewal of the Palace is predominantly to sort out the mechanical and engineering requirements of the House, to restore and preserve this UNESCO world heritage site for many generations to come. As my right hon. Friend will be aware, I will hope to introduce a Bill that will put in place the new sponsor body and delivery authority that will carry out the work, which is in the interests of the entire United Kingdom.