Flags: Public Buildings

Desmond Swayne Excerpts

Wednesday 25th June 2025 Westminster Hall

[Sir Desmond Swayne (in the Chair)]

I remind hon. Members that they may make a speech only with prior permission from the Member in charge and the Minister. As is the convention for 30-minute debates, there will not be an opportunity for the Member in charge to wind up.

[Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered the flying of flags from public buildings.

Thank you, Sir Desmond, for calling me to speak in this debate about the importance of flying flags from public buildings across our United Kingdom. I have studied and campaigned on the subject for many years, even before I entered the House of Commons. In 2000, as a councillor in the London borough of Havering, I campaigned for the Union flag, also correctly known as the Union Jack, to be flown all year round from the main flag mast at our townhall in Romford. It was a great sadness to me that the then Labour council, supported by some members of the Havering residents association, voted against my motion to do so. That led to a public outcry, leading to the eventual backing down of the then administration, which accepted that the people of my borough wanted to see their national flag flown 365 days of the year.

I mounted a similar campaign when I entered Parliament in 2001, calling for our national flag to fly from the Victoria Tower throughout the year. But the tradition then was that it would only fly when Parliament was in session. After nine years of campaigning for this rule to change, I finally managed to persuade the powers that be that it was only right and proper that the Union Jack should fly all year round, during weekends, evenings and recess periods—at all times.

The idea of the flag flying only when the House was sitting originated, so I was told, from when the monarch looked out of their window at Buckingham Palace to see whether the flag was flying and know whether Parliament was in session. When Her Majesty, our dear late Queen Elizabeth II, visited Romford around the time of the golden jubilee, I was proud to sit with her over lunch in the Wykeham Hall of St Edward’s church in Romford market and was able to discuss the matter directly with her. I was surprised to learn that Her late Majesty had never heard of that tradition. She told me that when she wanted to see whether the House was sitting, she would generally switch on BBC Parliament.

After much debate, following that revelation, the Union flag was eventually raised permanently above the Victoria Tower on 6 January 2010, where it has proudly flown every day ever since, for the millions of visitors to London to see and for everyone to take pride in.

--- Later in debate ---

[Andrew Rosindell]

I am afraid I have to continue as I have very little time to complete my speech.

When representatives from other countries visit, it is of course right that, out of courtesy, their national flag should fly for the occasion. Alternatively, when there is a tragic event in a particular country, it is right for that nation’s flag to fly for a strictly limited period out of respect and sympathy.

I firmly believe that we are reaching a point of broad consensus on the flying of flags, and it should be based on the principles of neutrality of public institutions, public buildings and the public square when it comes to matters of deep political controversy, much like the position of Speaker of the House of Commons. That is needed now more than ever.

I have here a copy of the booklet on the approved flying of flags. It is available in the Speaker’s Office. It explains the policy on flying flags on flagpoles on the parliamentary estate and outlines what I consider to be, with a few exceptions, a broadly correct approach. However, I strongly believe that the cross of St Patrick or the red hand of Ulster should be flown on 17 March for St Patrick’s Day, in addition to the cross of St George, the cross St Andrew and the red dragon for St George’s, St Andrew’s and St David’s Days respectively.

However, in many town hall and public buildings across the UK, political polarisation has reached a new height. Change in a variety of social and political principles is coming fast. Civic unrest is on the rise and I do not believe that ever more calls for diversity are the answer. We need a more unified approach, with the British people represented by national symbols, including flags, which bring us together and do not divide us further. One example is the so-called Progress Pride flag, which many believe promotes a contentious ideology that harms women and vulnerable children. It is clearly politically divisive and should not be flown from public buildings anywhere in the United Kingdom.

There is a clear and simple expression of the position that I believe we ought to adopt. We must recognise the importance of institutional neutrality in government and publicly funded spaces. We must acknowledge that the flying of political flags can be seen as implicitly endorsing specific viewpoints.

We must enable individuals and communities to freely express their identities and customs, while ensuring that public institutions exercise strict caution to remain inclusive to all British citizens. We must call on all public bodies, especially those representing national and local government, to draw up clear and consistent policies limiting flag displays to country, county, city, borough, town, village, military or those that represent the monarch, the royal family or officially recognised flags such as Armed Forces Day, VE Day, VJ Day, and for occasions such as the Royal Air Force flag for Battle of Britain Day, the red ensign for Merchant Navy Day, the Royal Navy flag for Trafalgar Day and the British Army flag on Waterloo Day.

We, the Parliament of the United Kingdom, must give a firm answer to the grey area filled with uncertainties and questions. It must be one of unifying patriotic neutrality. Finally, I commend His Majesty’s Government for continuing the tradition of flying the flags of historic counties for one week in July every year. Our historic counties, my own being Essex, make up the genuine identities of peoples across these islands, separate from the administrative and council boundaries. However, I strongly believe that the display of county flags in Parliament Square each July for Historic County Flags Day should be strictly restricted to the historic county flags alone. Regional flags and other flags can be flown on other days, but it is important that only historic flags representing the historic counties are flown.

Sir Desmond, thank you for allowing me to speak at such length today. I commend the Minister for her interest in this subject. I also thank her for visiting the Channel Islands earlier this year, where I am sure she was proud to see the flags of Jersey, Guernsey, Alderney and Sark for their 80th anniversary of Liberation Day. Pride and patriotism in our countries is something that all people, and all members of all parties, should be proud to uphold. I have no doubt that the Minister will not disappoint Members of this House today.

[Sir Desmond Swayne (in the Chair)]

I call the Minister, in the time that remains to you.

Oral Answers to Questions

Desmond Swayne Excerpts

Thursday 3rd April 2025 Commons Chamber

[Chris Bryant]

Or some of the armour, because there was a time when it was fine for a man to wear a brooch; perhaps that time will come again. I pay tribute to Burnby Hall gardens and museum, and it would be amazing if we were able to get it back into full use. The gardens are amazing—apparently there are 80 different kinds of wild water lily—but it would be good if we could get the whole museum going, and I pay tribute to the volunteers who are trying to make that happen.

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

9. What recent assessment she has made of the potential impact of the planned increase in employer national insurance contributions on creative industries.

[The Minister for Creative Industries, Arts and Tourism (Chris Bryant)]

As the right hon. Gentleman knows, a large proportion of the creative industries are constituted as small and medium-sized enterprises, and the vast majority of those are protected from the increase in national insurance contributions. Importantly, as many of them have said to me, they fully understand the need for greater expenditure on our public services, and that has to be matched by finding the money from somewhere.

[Sir Desmond Swayne]

I have always been particularly impressed by your brooch, Mr Speaker. Nevertheless, those increases are damaging for any enterprise, but we could make it up to them by restoring Baroness Kidron’s amendment to the Data (Use and Access) Bill. Will the Minister do that?

[Chris Bryant]

No, we have just taken it out of the Bill for the precise reason that we do not think it would make the blindest bit of difference to the financial support provided to creative industries today. That is why we are not supporting the amendment.

Victory in Europe and Japan: 80th Anniversaries

Desmond Swayne Excerpts

Thursday 13th March 2025 Commons Chamber

[Stephanie Peacock]

My hon. Friend has outlined the huge impact that the war had. I said in my statement that my generation would be the last to grow up with family members and friends who fought or contributed; I remember on my first day at school, or certainly not long after I joined school, my first teacher talking about her experience during an air raid. That was really important to me growing up—it was part of my childhood that people talked about the second world war. That is not the case for today’s generation, which is why we have launched our “Letters to Loved Ones” initiative. That initiative encourages people to explore their family history—to look for letters and artefacts so that they can understand what life was like during wartime. We are encouraging people to share those letters and artefacts on our website, so that we can all learn from them.

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

My father served on HMS Fearless, which was sunk, and although he survived, many of his comrades remain buried at sea. Will there be any initiative to address war graves at sea, given that there have been egregious examples of their being plundered for scrap and other things?

[Stephanie Peacock]

The right hon. Gentleman makes an important point about war graves at sea, and I would be very happy to meet him or write to him. I will certainly reach out to colleagues in the MOD to talk further about that issue.

Oral Answers to Questions

Desmond Swayne Excerpts

Thursday 16th January 2025 Commons Chamber

[Marsha De Cordova]

I thank the hon. Member for the question. As he will have heard throughout this Question Time, we are keen to ensure that the listed places of worship grant scheme continues, because we can see not only the immense benefits it brings to our communities, but how it helps to alleviate some of the challenges of raising funds. It is important that all our heritage buildings, including our churches, are preserved and that adequate funding is available for them. I would be very happy, if the hon. Member wishes, to meet him to discuss this further.

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

The scheme was designed to address a perverse incentive in the VAT rules that favoured demolition and rebuild at a time when we were unable to change those rules. Post Brexit, we can now do so. Will the Church Commissioners draw that to the attention of those on the Treasury Bench?

[Marsha De Cordova]

Yes.

Oral Answers to Questions

Desmond Swayne Excerpts

Thursday 23rd May 2024 Commons Chamber

The hon. Member for South West Bedfordshire, representing the Church Commissioners, was asked—

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

9. What steps the Church of England is taking to increase the number of academy schools it sponsors.

[The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Andrew Selous)]

The Church of England is already the biggest provider of academies in England, with 1,770 academies and 280 multi-academy trusts. Each diocese across England will have its own academisation plans. These schools include pupils of all faiths and none, and they are committed to serving the whole community.

[Sir Desmond Swayne]

There is a growing need for special education, particularly in the New Forest. What can the Church do to assist in my constituency?

[Andrew Selous]

I am very grateful to my right hon. Friend, who has had a long-standing interest in these and other Church matters. He is right in what he says because, with two thirds of special schools at or over capacity, the recent decision to allow faith education providers to run special schools will enable the Church of England to alleviate some of those pressures and give families more choice and opportunity in the New Forest as well as across the whole of England. I would say that our strong ethos of community care makes our schools well suited to providing a nurturing environment for all children with special educational needs.

Oral Answers to Questions

Desmond Swayne Excerpts

Thursday 18th April 2024 Commons Chamber

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

6. To ask the hon. Member for South West Bedfordshire, representing the Church Commissioners, if the Church will publish a statement on its position on amendments tabled to the Criminal Justice Bill relating to the decriminalisation of abortion before Report stage of that Bill.

[Andrew Selous]

The Church of England believes that the foetus is a human life with the potential to develop, while recognising that there can be strictly limited conditions under which abortion may be morally preferable to any available alternative. The Church also believes that every possible support, especially by Church members, should be given to those who are pregnant and in difficult circumstances. The Church would support new clauses 15 and 34 and believes that, while women should not face criminalisation, anyone coercing a woman to have an abortion, or providing one beyond the legal limit, or supplying an abortion kit for a late-term use should be prosecuted.

[Sir Desmond Swayne]

I welcome the support for new clauses 15 and 34. I think the Second Church Estates Commissioner has given implicit opposition to the new clause in the name of the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Dame Diana Johnson), but I am gobsmacked not to have had a clear statement on the criminality of terminating a pregnancy up to the moment of birth by whomsoever. Is the intention to drive us into the arms of Rome? Is he as gobsmacked as I am?

[Andrew Selous]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for his interest in these serious issues, which, given their importance, I am sure the House will want to treat sensitively. I will convey his comments to the leadership of the Church, but just to repeat: the Church is supporting the two-week reduction in the age of viability from 24 to 22 weeks, based on the latest available evidence that foetuses do survive from 22 weeks onwards. It is also supporting protection for Down’s syndrome children to make the case that abortion beyond the legal limit should not be acceptable for such children. The Church supports the continued prosecution of medical practitioners who assist with abortions beyond the legal limit.

Oral Answers to Questions

Desmond Swayne Excerpts

Thursday 22nd February 2024 Commons Chamber

[Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con)]

4. Whether the Church provides training for clergy on supporting asylum seekers wishing to convert to Christianity.

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

6. What guidance the Church issues for clergy on supporting asylum seekers wishing to convert to Christianity.

[Andrew Selous]

Both archbishops have offered to meet the Home Secretary, and the Church has provided advice and guidance for clergy to consider when dealing with requests for baptism from asylum seekers. The guidance refers to the need for discernment and recognises that there may be mixed motives on the part of asylum seekers requesting baptism.

--- Later in debate ---

[Andrew Selous]

I hear very clearly what my hon. Friend says. I know that he, like me, takes seriously the reputation of the Church of England. He cares a great deal about it, and I am grateful to him for that. I repeat the answer I gave my hon. Friend the Member for Kettering (Mr Hollobone): priests are required to use discernment, to recognise that there might be mixed motives, and always to put forward truthful representations of character.

[Sir Desmond Swayne]

I heard the words of my hon. Friend the Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton) as well. When there is plenty wrong and plenty to complain about, it is not always the case that we should blame the established Church, is it?

[Andrew Selous]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend. Any institution run by humans will never be perfect, but he is right that the Church of England was unfairly accused of being involved in some cases, when it had no involvement at all.

Telegraph Media Group: Proposed Sale to RedBird IMI

Desmond Swayne Excerpts

Tuesday 30th January 2024 Commons Chamber

[Julia Lopez]

I thank my right hon. Friend for making that simple point. It is one that I am sure will be considered once this case has passed.

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

Were a media outlet in an authoritarian state, or indeed any other state, to be threatened with foreign ownership, would the Minister responsible be as scrupulous in her answers as my hon. Friend has so properly been with us today?

[Julia Lopez]

Perhaps not.

Oral Answers to Questions

Desmond Swayne Excerpts

Thursday 11th January 2024 Commons Chamber

The hon. Member for South West Bedfordshire, representing the Church Commissioners, was asked—

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

10. What support the Church is providing to the Anglican Hospital in Gaza.

[The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Andrew Selous)]

The House may not be aware that the Anglican Church is one of the largest providers of healthcare and education globally. The al-Ahli Hospital in Gaza is an example of this. Before Christmas, the hospital was severely damaged again and a tank demolished its front wall. Most of the hospital staff were taken away by the Israeli Defence Force and the Church of England has asked the Government here to inquire about their wellbeing and whereabouts and to request that they be released.

[Sir Desmond Swayne]

Intimidation by hard-line settlers has prompted the Patriarch to say that clergy are fighting for their lives, and that the Armenian quarter faces a violent demise. Is a Christian presence in Jerusalem still viable?

[Andrew Selous]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for bringing this issue before the House. He is right: a century ago, a quarter of Jerusalem was Christian; now, just 1% of the population is, and in the Armenian quarter of the old city, the Christian presence has come under intensified threat from intimidation and aggressive property acquisition by settlers. The Church of England is very concerned that the rule of law should prevail in Israel and the status quo be maintained. It is unconscionable that Christians should be driven from the holy land.

Oral Answers to Questions

Desmond Swayne Excerpts

Thursday 15th June 2023 Commons Chamber

The hon. Member for South West Bedfordshire, representing the Church Commissioners, was asked—

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

1. What steps the Church of England is taking to encourage church choirs to engage with local schools.

[The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Andrew Selous)]

The Church of England has enthusiastically supported the Government’s Sing Up programme, encouraging local music hubs to partner with churches, and enabling the use of skills and knowledge that schools would otherwise have to buy in. I am sure that my right hon. Friend, as a strong supporter of singing in church, will very much approve.

[Sir Desmond Swayne]

When will they be singing up in the New Forest?

[Andrew Selous]

I am very pleased to be able to tell my right hon. Friend that the new co-director of music at St Mary’s church in Fordingbridge, Hazel Ricketts, is running a singing club, working with 53 children in local schools every week. Her expertise in church music will enable that work to expand next term to include all four local schools, both primary and secondary. I am sure that my right hon. Friend will want to go to enjoy this wonderful singing for himself.