Private Finance Initiative Hospitals

Derek Twigg Excerpts

Wednesday 4th May 2011 Westminster Hall

[Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to speak under your chairmanship, Mr Meale. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for St Helens North (Mr Watts) on securing this very important debate and my right hon. Friend the Member for Knowsley (Mr Howarth) on the contribution that he made. As you will have picked up, we are constituency next-door neighbours, but there are wider issues that we need to discuss and that I intend to raise with the Minister.

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On resuming—

[Derek Twigg]

I will say more about the St Helens and Knowsley Teaching Hospitals NHS Trust a little later, but I have a lifelong relationship with the Whiston hospital, which is used by many thousands of my constituents. As I said, my right hon. Friend the Member for Knowsley, my hon. Friend the Member for St Helens North and I work very closely on issues relating to it, as neighbouring MPs.

I congratulate the hospital on delivering the PFI six months ahead of time and to an excellent standard. The chief executive, the board and the staff have done an outstanding job. The many medical staff, support staff and ancillary staff do an amazing job, and the hospital has the highest reputation, but I will talk specifically about the hospital in more detail later.

It is important to understand the use of PFIs, what was required and what was achieved. In 1997, after 18 years of Conservative disinvestment in the NHS, the service was in crisis: 1 million people were on waiting lists, hospitals were in disrepair, staff felt undervalued and buildings had been neglected. As my hon. Friends will confirm, people regularly complained to us in 1997 and thereafter—my right hon. Friend will say that they were complaining before then—about waiting more than two years to have an operation or even to be seen by a specialist in some instances. It is important to make that point.

The Labour Government made a firm commitment to improve, support and protect the NHS. In government, we did what was necessary to turn it from an organisation that was struggling for survival into the world-class and world-leading service it is today. It is important to make that point about the improvements made under the previous Labour Government, which included achieving the lowest waiting times, the highest public satisfaction, a two-week turnaround to see a specialist, a massive decrease in the number of those dying early from heart disease and cancer, and improved facilities. In the context of PFI, investment in the NHS is important.

As my hon. Friend said, 114 new hospitals were built over Labour’s 13 years in government to replace the existing ageing and neglected infrastructure. In 1997, half the NHS estate dated from before 1948; in 2010, that figure was down to about 20%. That rapid modernisation was unprecedented, but vital to the regeneration of the NHS, and PFIs played an important part in making that possible. They made possible the move from the previous workhouse-style provision of health care to a modern, technically advanced health care system for the 21st century. [Interruption.] The Minister tuts, but an old workhouse building was still being used on the Whiston site at the time. In fact, back in the 19th century, one of my distant relatives died in that building when it was still a workhouse, so it was a workhouse and it was used for health care. Now, we have a modern hospital to replace it. It is important to make that contrast, as my hon. Friend did.

[Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab)]

Even with the massive investment and improvement under the previous Labour Government, my local hospital is still 60% a Victorian workhouse, and we need more. [Laughter.] The Minister laughs, but I mean that we need more investment, not more workhouses. Does the shadow Minister agree that although PFI was incredibly valuable in bringing that expansion about, it had two fundamental flaws? In a pragmatic way, it relied on the private sector being more efficient than the public sector to recover the higher borrowing costs, but that has not happened in many cases, because of the strict configuration of the contracts. Secondly, when the private sector is involved—I am not totally against that—we have the secrecy that my hon. Friend the Member for St Helens North (Mr Watts) mentioned. There are commercial interests, which is bad when public money is being used for the public good, because we cannot find out what is going on.

[Derek Twigg]

I totally understand my hon. Friend’s concerns. As regards his local hospital, he will realise that I never said that every hospital was modernised and improved. The issue now is how they will be modernised and improved under this Government, and I will return to that because we need to know from the Minister today what the Secretary of State’s and the Prime Minister’s plans are for modernising our NHS estate. The massive improvement under the previous Labour Government was unprecedented, but my hon. Friend is right that there were concerns. Not everybody supported PFIs, and there were issues, which I will come to later. My hon. Friend raises an important point.

It should be remembered that PFIs were also used under the previous Conservative Government. As noted in the Public Accounts Committee report entitled “PFI in Housing and Hospitals”, which was published on 18 January,

“PFI has delivered many new hospitals and homes which might otherwise not have been delivered”.

It is also important to note that the report’s summary says that hospitals are mostly

“receiving the services expected at the point contracts were signed and are generally being well managed.”

Again, I accept there were some problems, but the Public Accounts Committee recognised that they were generally well managed. Labour not only invested in the NHS, we invested in protecting its future. The contracted maintenance of buildings under the PFI agreements will ensure that the standard of NHS buildings will be as high in 30 years as it is today. The present generation is only the custodian of the NHS. Future generations are its owners, and PFI agreements will ensure that they are served by the same exceptional standard of facilities as today. That is an important point.

The system is not perfect, but at least it guarantees the maintenance of the buildings over a 30 to 35 year contract period. We all know that, with financial pressures, funding was cut for maintenance. Rather than being a one-off, that became a regular occurrence. That is why we found hospitals in the state they were in 1997—for which we, too, had some responsibility, as we had been in government for various periods before then. The fact was that there was massive under-investment, which was exacerbated by the Thatcher Government.

Under Labour, PFIs gave private sector partners responsibility for the completion of large infrastructure projects. A crucial point—of importance to my hon. Friend the Member for Blackley and Broughton (Graham Stringer)—is that accountability for services and the satisfactory completion of such projects remained in the public sector. That meant that the Government were still accountable to the people and Parliament for improving services to patients.

The PFI arrangement is a tool; it is a method that can be used badly or well. It would be disingenuous, as I said to my hon. Friend, to suggest that we were all in favour of PFIs when we were in government. It is important to be frank and honest and acknowledge that. There are strong views opposed to PFIs—it would be wrong to suggest otherwise with regard to some schemes. What we can be sure of is that, under Labour, the PFIs formed part of a carefully managed NHS in which the private sector could play a limited role. Sadly, under the Government’s current reforms, that will no longer be the case. The Government continue to rush through their NHS reorganisation; despite the so-called pause, work is still going on, without sufficient evidence or consultation on its true effect. Pressure has been relentlessly piled on to the NHS and foundation trusts, with insufficient consideration for the future. Through these costly, unwise and unwarranted reforms, spending cuts and efficiency savings, the Government are showing once again that they cannot be trusted on the NHS.

My hon. Friend the Member for St Helens North and my right hon. Friend the Member for Knowsley highlighted the issues surrounding the St Helens and Knowsley Teaching Hospitals NHS Trust, with which they have had a long association. However, it is important to repeat some of the things they said. This trust has a strong track record of high performance, achieving three stars and consecutive double excellent ratings from the Care Quality Commission. That high standard of care has been maintained: in 2010, it was the only acute trust in the country to perform above the national average in every indicator of quality of services and care in the CQC assessment. Therefore, I believe it could be described as the nation’s top-performing hospital. In addition, the trust achieved the maximum overall score in the auditors’ local evaluation for the use of its resources, for the fourth year running, acknowledging the trust’s excellent financial management.

Therefore, the trust performs to an excellent standard, not only in services and hygiene, but in financial management. The benefits of the PFI scheme for the hospital have been tremendous—more than 80% of the accommodation is new build on two sites, to which my right hon. and hon. Friends have referred; there has been capital investment of £350 million, with a 35-year concessionary period; radiology imaging equipment through a managed equipment services has been provided by GE Medical Systems; and hard and soft facilities management services, including catering, domestic estates, grounds, gardens and so on, have been provided. An important point for the Minister is that there is also 50% single room provision, with en suite facilities, as per Department of Health guidance. That is important in meeting both what we wanted and what the Government have said in respect of single-sex wards.

In 2009, the Secretary of State for Health, who was then the shadow Secretary of State, said this in an interview on Mumsnet about the pledge regarding single-sex rooms:

“This pledge will be delivered as part of our plans to provide 45,000 more single rooms in the NHS.”

Funnily enough, that pledge was dropped, and we have heard no more about it. I am interested to know, in the context of any PFI plans or hospital building programmes that the Minister has to comment on, whether there are plans to increase the number of single rooms, which is an important part of improvements in the NHS. I look forward to hearing any details that the Minister might give us.

My hon. Friend the Member for St Helens North, backed up by my right hon. Friend the Member for Knowsley, made some important points about secret documents. One has now been put into the public domain, though not officially, but we have not been able to see the other one. The Minister must answer who suggested as an option that a private sector provider could be brought in to manage this specific trust, and perhaps other trusts. Who suggested that that was the case? I understand that the trust board rejected that option and would only deal with it if directed to do so by the NHS, whether that involved the strategic health authority or the Department. I understand that that was the case. Will the Minister clarify that important point? I understand that one reason why the trust board would not accept the option of voluntarily considering a private sector provider coming to run it was a concern for patient safety. The cuts it was being asked to make to get to foundation trust status were too great and, in its opinion, were threatening patient safety. Will the Minister tell us whether that was the case?

What part of the NHS would suggest that option for a hospital that has achieved a double excellent rating, that has excellent financial management, that has been well run for years, that has a brilliant chief executive and management board, that has a committed staff and that has the support of the community? What person in their right mind would suggest a private sector provider? How could a private sector provider run it better than a double excellent rating?

[Mr Simon Burns]

I want to deal with this in detail when I come to my contribution. The hon. Gentleman said, “What man in his right mind would consider the private sector being used in the NHS for the management of an NHS hospital?”

[Derek Twigg]

This particular one.

[Mr Burns]

I am talking about the generality. I can answer the generality and will come to the specifics in my speech. The gentleman concerned, who accepted the principle in a generality, was the right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham), who was Secretary of State for Health before the election.

[Derek Twigg]

I am not sure that that is worthy of a reply. I am being specific. The Minister may remember—and the hon. Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry) sitting behind him will—that when the Health and Social Care Public Bill Committee discussed foundation trusts and insolvency, I made the point that it does not always follow that a hospital that gets into financial difficulties is badly run. That is the issue that the proposals in the Bill do not take into account. What was the logic behind the proposal for this specific hospital to have a private provider brought in to help manage it? That is a different point from the one that the Minister took.

I also want to make the point that the Government are placing NHS trusts under intense pressure through the policy of forcing foundation status within three years, coupled with the costs of reorganisation and the efficiency savings that trusts have been asked to find. That is leaving many NHS trusts in peril as they struggle to meet foundation trust status, or become foundation trusts with financial difficulties from day one. The Minister knows a number of hospitals are in financial difficulty. I do not know whether he has yet decided to put that list in the public domain.

The dangers are clear. St George’s hospital in Tooting, London, recently decided that it was too risky to push ahead with the Government’s preferred timetable for NHS trusts to become foundation trusts. Speaking after announcing a two-year delay to the plan to become a foundation trust, the board of the hospital said:

“The board recognises that if we put the organisation under pressure to become an FT during 2011-12 then this could impact on the quality and safety of the patient care that we provide.”

I wonder whether parallels can be drawn with the St Helens and Knowsley trust, as the board is not prepared to take the risk. Put simply, existing pressures on NHS trusts are too great to risk a massive reorganisation. Hospitals realise that, and so should the Government. It is important to understand that the pressures are great, and what is being asked behind the scenes at particular foundation trusts is important.

Now more than ever, the dangers of an FT or NHS trust experiencing financial difficulties are growing. Under the Tory-led Government’s plans for the NHS, a struggling FT will be faced with two options. One is insolvency in line with commercial insolvency procedures, and the other is the sort of takeover dictated by clause 113 of the Health and Social Care Bill, which the Committee discussed in some detail, or a takeover on unknown terms. The Minister refused to be drawn on giving an example of what hospitals might be in difficulty and what sort of takeover might be considered. I do not know whether he has changed his mind since then, because an example would help us with the detail of our deliberations.

Although the debate on PFIs and their appropriate use will continue, it is important to be clear on one issue. During our time in government, we supported the NHS. We undertook no step that would have endangered its position as a world class public health care system. In comparison, this Government’s policy on health care has been in turmoil from the very beginning. It is hated by the public and despised by the professionals, and we believe that that is dangerous for the NHS.

We need to know what plans the Government, the Secretary of State and the Prime Minister have for capital investment in the NHS. What will hospitals and NHS facilities have to do if they require large capital investment? Is it the case, as reported in the Financial Times last year, that the Secretary of State has ruled that they should no longer have access to public sector cash for big capital projects? Is that the Government’s current policy? Alternatively, will the Minister confirm that future investment in NHS capital projects will be determined solely by the market, as part of the Government’s plans to place the market at the centre of the NHS?

The Minister will expect me to remind him that he was forthright—it is not what the Secretary of State would have wished—in identifying the extent to which EU competition law will increasingly apply to the NHS. Just as importantly, we need to understand where the Government are going on PFI. Much has been said about what they are considering, but when will they publish their plans?

I remind the Minister that he is now in government. Whatever matters he raises this afternoon, he must realise that he needs to supply the answers to these difficult questions. There is great uncertainty within the NHS, which is not helped by the lack of policy detail on which course the Government intend to pursue. It is a crucial question for NHS services, and the answers need to be heard.

The Government should make no mistake about it that their massive reorganisation proposals are putting the future of the NHS as we know it in peril. They are causing massive uncertainty and distracting the professionals, and, as the Health and Social Care Bill impact assessment shows, it could have an impact on the safety and care of patients. The fact remains that opposition to the Health and Social Care Bill, which has been led by the Labour party, and the increasing rejection of the Government’s plans by medical professionals, health experts and patients groups alike have forced the Government to take this humiliating pause. If it is to be more than a simple political ruse to get through the local elections tomorrow, real and significant changes will need to be made to the Bill, including the crucial deletion of part 3, which has severe implications on the issues that we have been discussing today.

Labour left the NHS with record levels of public satisfaction, record low waiting lists and world class hospitals such as those at St Helens and Whiston. It is becoming increasingly clear that the NHS is moving backwards because of this Government’s cuts and broken promises. I have no doubt that that will inform the choice that people will make tomorrow at the ballot box.

[Mr Alan Meale (in the Chair)]

I call the Minister to reply. As an ex-Whip, you will be aware that you have extra time—11 minutes will be added to our debate because of the Division.

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[Mr Burns]

I do not share the hon. Gentleman’s blinkered view of what went on in the health service prior to May 1997. I am probably of a more generous spirit, in that I am prepared to pay tribute to the achievements of the last Labour Government, although it would be more difficult to discover those of the Wilson-Callaghan Government and before that the Wilson Government because of the chronic economic situation.

Unfortunately, the hon. Gentleman is not as generous of spirit; he seems to think that everything changed in May 1979 and did not improve again until May 1997, despite the fact that for every year between those dates we saw a real-terms increase in health spending. Indeed, health spending went up from just under £9 billion a year in 1979 to more than £39 billion in 1996-97, which at the time was an incredibly large sum, although due to inflation and other factors, it now seems far more modest. However, I am prepared to be more open-spirited and to acknowledge achievement when justified, but also to criticise when justified.

[Derek Twigg]

No one suggested that everything was renewed and changed under the previous Labour Government, but there was record investment and an unprecedented hospital building programme. How many hospitals did the Thatcher and Major Governments build?

[Mr Burns]

This is the point. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman is taking a punt on something with which he is not very familiar, but if he had been in the House in the mid-1990s, he would know beyond doubt that there were record levels of investment in the NHS. Even he said, looking at the report in front of him, that the Major Government used PFI, and there was considerable investment in infrastructure. He would probably argue—with some justification because one can always argue this—that there should have been more investment, but there was more. I shall give one example, but—

[Derek Twigg]

Give examples.

[Mr Burns]

I will. There are so many examples of old and dilapidated buildings or buildings that were past their sell-by dates that the Thatcher and the Major Governments knocked down and replaced through new investment. One example was the moving of the European-renowned burns and plastic surgery facility on a Billericay site in Essex, which wanted to expand to maintain its position at the forefront of providing highly specialist services and was moved to Broomfield. I remember a particularly happy day in February 1997 when, as a junior Health Minister, I accompanied the then Prime Minister to open it.

May I now get back to the point I was making to the hon. Member for St Helens North? However reasonable the hon. Member for Halton is trying to be, his hon. Friend was not quite so generous, suggesting that everything was appalling prior to 1997 and everything was magnificent after it. The hon. Member for Blackley and Broughton rather unfortunately brought the speech of the hon. Member for Halton to a bit of a halt by highlighting some of the perceived criticisms of the PFI system under the Blair and Brown Governments, but the hon. Member for Halton very neatly sidestepped the issue. He did not want his story of good news on investment in hospital buildings to be punctured, and neatly avoided it.

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[Mr Burns]

To pick up the point made by the hon. Member for Blackley and Broughton, until October last year, I, too, for the 13 years of the previous Labour Government had a hospital in my constituency that was an old, Victorian workhouse, with ancillary wards that were improved Nissen huts. We could go round the country and find many buildings that needed improvement.

I am sure that Labour Members will accept that even the NHS is restricted in that it cannot have unlimited funding, there will be priorities for improvements and reinvestment, and not everything will be done all the time. The process is ongoing. To answer another point before I focus on St Helens, the hon. Member for Halton asked about what is happening to the capital spending settlement and programme. As I am sure he is aware, as an outcome of the spending review, the Government have a capital spending settlement up to 2014-15, and capital will continue to be used to provide investment for NHS development, as well as PFI.

[Derek Twigg]

How many hospitals?

[Mr Burns]

The hon. Gentleman wants me to list some more new hospitals. There is the Chelsea and Westminster hospital on Fulham road, which was a flagship hospital for the centre of London initiated by Baroness Bottomley, I believe. I could continue round the country, but I will not because my time is limited. I think that the hon. Member for St Helens North would prefer it if I spent more time discussing his local PFI project, because there is a lot to be said to clear his mind and reassure him, if only he has the open ears to listen; an open mind would help as well.

As the Government confirmed at the end of last year, where they can be clearly shown to represent good value for money, we remain committed to public-private partnerships, including those delivered via PFI. Such arrangements will continue to play an important role in delivering future NHS infrastructure. However, the Government also believe that not only have too many PFI schemes been undertaken, but some were too ambitious in their scope. The Treasury has now reviewed the value for money guidance for new schemes and looked at how operational schemes can be run more efficiently. We are clear that the focus should now be on releasing efficiencies at the many existing PFI schemes.

In January, the Treasury published new draft guidance, “Making Savings in Operational PFI Contracts”, which will help Departments and local authorities to identify opportunities to reduce the cost of operational PFI contracts. As part of that initiative, my noble Friend Lord Sassoon, the commercial secretary, launched four pilot projects to test the ideas raised in the Treasury’s draft guidance. The focus of the pilots is to find efficiency gains and savings within the PFI contract itself, allowing the quality of care for patients to remain the priority. The pilots should end by the end of this month. The lessons learned will be used to finalise the Treasury guidance and to improve other relevant PFI contracts, including the one at Whiston hospital. One essential element is that all NHS trusts will retain any savings made to reinvest in improving patient care.

The other important aspect of operational PFI schemes and their cost to local health economies is their effect on NHS trusts seeking NHS foundation trust status. The coalition Government have set a clear commitment for all remaining NHS trusts to achieve foundation trust status by April 2014. That policy will finally realise the ambition of the previous Labour Government. It is about ensuring high quality and sustainable NHS services by giving trusts the freedom to serve their patients to the very best of their ability, unhindered by top-down bureaucratic control.

An issue facing some NHS trusts in their move towards attaining FT status is the affordability of their PFI schemes, as hon. Members are aware from examples in their constituencies. We are tendering for an independent review to establish where PFI schemes may, in some organisations, be the root cause of problems that prevent them from becoming foundation trusts. St Helen’s and Knowsley NHS Trust is one such organisation, and will be considered as part of the scheme. In addition to the independent assessment, the Department and the NHS are developing solutions in a systematic and comprehensive way to manage the PFI schemes in the very small number of trusts where a local or regional solution cannot be found.

When the current management of St Helens and Knowsley NHS Trust signed their PFI agreement in 2006, with the agreement of the then Secretary of State for Health, Patricia Hewitt, and other Ministers, local PCTs agreed to make up the shortfall between the revenue generated by the hospital through the national tariff and other means and the cost of the unitary payment—the annual PFI charge, which was some £20.3 million. Unfortunately, that decision built a deep lack of sustainability into the trust’s finances—a lack of sustainability that the trust, the strategic health authority and the Department are now working extremely hard to rectify. To that end, the trust’s board and the strategic health authority, NHS North West, are developing a tripartite formal agreement, or TFA, to be agreed with the Department of Health, which will support the work to achieve foundation trust status.

Every trust is required to produce a TFA, setting out how it plans to progress to FT status by 2014, the challenges that it faces and how it plans to overcome them. In the case of the St Helens and Knowsley trust, the TFA is still in draft form and is very much a work in progress. Beyond what was leaked to the Liverpool Echo and to the hon. Member for St Helens North, I have not seen the draft and while discussions are ongoing it would be inappropriate for me to do so and I will not see it. Therefore, it would also be inappropriate at this stage to publish the documents.

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[Mr Burns]

Because it was a first draft document, drawn up between officials in the Department of Health, the SHA and the trust, and I do not think that at that stage it was appropriate for me to see it. Also, I suppose that if one is being totally candid, which often gets me into trouble when the hon. Member for Halton or particularly the hon. Member for Leicester West (Liz Kendall) are around, it does make it slightly easier for me because I can say, “In all honesty, I have not seen it.”

I will now make some progress, because I think that what I am about to say may answer some of the questions put by the hon. Member for St Helens North and it may well help the right hon. Member for Knowsley, too. If it does not and I have time to do so, I will give way then.

The TFA process should be completed soon, with the final approved version hopefully being published some time in June or July. I can confirm—if the hon. Member for St Helens North would like to listen to me, because I think that he will find what I am about to say particularly interesting, as he has expressed a degree of confusion about the issue—is that one of the options under review is not, I repeat not, to somehow “privatise” the NHS. As I said to the hon. Gentleman during Health questions last week, this Government will never privatise the NHS and we have no intention of doing so at the St Helens and Knowsley trust.

Perhaps it would be a help if I took a moment to explain the process through which the trust, like all trusts in a similar position, is progressing towards becoming an FT. First, the trust, along with local health authorities, will attempt to find a local solution to whatever financial issues there may be. If a simple local solution cannot be found from within its own resources, then a more radical solution may be necessary, such as merging with another trust and examining whether services need to be reconfigured. On that point, it may be of some consolation to Opposition Members that the benefits of a merger with another trust are that it reduces the percentage of the unitary payment of the PFI in relation to income, which helps with the financial situation, and for other FTs in a merger it increases the income base and economies of scale become possible, which again potentially helps with the finances of a trust.

If the problems cannot be resolved in that way, we would work to a national solution, which is being developed by the Department and which will be agreed with the Treasury. If there is no foreseeable solution, a final option would be to consider tendering the management of the trust. Under that option, management teams from within the NHS, from a social enterprise or from the private sector would put forward their ideas on how to find a way forward for the trust.

[Derek Twigg]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Burns]

May I just continue, because this is rather important?

While that option is a very long way down the line of potential solutions, it is only what is currently being done at Hinchingbrooke hospital in Huntingdon, in the constituency of the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, my hon. Friend the Member for Huntingdon (Mr Djanogly). The decision on that hospital was taken by the previous Labour Government, when the right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) was the Secretary of State for Health. So it is not a new option dreamt up by the present Government since coming into office. We are simply taking an option that is already on the table and that was there when we came into power, which the previous Secretary of State for Health—a Labour Secretary of State for Health—was prepared to accept.

[Derek Twigg]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Burns]

Just one minute. I must say that at the time, during the discussions about what should happen to Hinchingbrooke hospital and about the use of the option that the right hon. Member for Leigh agreed to, nobody said that that was privatising the hospital, because it was not. If—and it is a big if—that solution were to be considered the right way to solve the problems at the St Helens and Knowsley trust, that would not be privatisation either.

[Derek Twigg]

With respect to the right hon. Gentleman, we are not comparing like with like.

[Mr Burns]

We are.

[Derek Twigg]

We have a double-excellent hospital at St Helens and Knowsley; it has excellent financial management and excellent services. It meets all the standards. I put the question back to the Minister. On that basis, why is the Department—whether we call it the SHA or not, it is part of the Department and it has responsibility to the Secretary of State—

[Mr Burns]

It is not part of the Department.

[Derek Twigg]

Well, I understand the SHA discussed this as an option with the hospital. I want the Minister to ask my question. Did the hospital voluntarily reject the third option of a private sector provider coming in to manage or run the hospital? Did it refuse that option and also say that it would not accept the cuts being asked of it by the SHA as that would put patient safety at risk? Is that correct or not? If he does not know, will he find out?

[Mr Burns]

I can advise the hon. Gentleman that it is not correct. That is the advice—

[Derek Twigg]

indicated dissent.

[Mr Burns]

The hon. Gentleman could at least have the decency to listen to what I am saying first. The advice that I have been given is that that is not correct.

[Derek Twigg]

What is not correct?

[Mr Burns]

That the trust rejected consideration, or the possible consideration, of that option, because—[Interruption.] What I want to do is to put it in context. As I said in my comments earlier, that is very much a last possible solution if the other solutions are not able to be worked out.

[Mr Burns]

Let me just finish. If I have been given the wrong information, and I do not believe that I have been, the hon. Member for Halton will be the first person to find out, because I would hate to mislead him.

[Derek Twigg]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Burns]

No. I have answered the hon. Gentleman. He said, “Did the trust reject the proposal because they found it unacceptable and they thought it wasn’t in the best interests of patients and patient safety?” That is what I—

[Derek Twigg]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Burns]

All right, I will give way for the last time.

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[Derek Twigg]

I understand that the SHA, not the hospital trust, suggested as a third option having the private provider, on the basis that the hospital—I understand that it was approved by the board—would not accept what was on offer because of the cuts that it would have to make and it was concerned about patient safety. It therefore would not accept voluntarily an option to have a private sector provider come in. The question is whether that option was proposed by the SHA and whether the trust, because of concerns about patient safety, rejected it on that basis, on a voluntary basis. I make that point very clearly.

[Mr Burns]

Right. I repeat the answer that I gave to the hon. Gentleman before. My understanding is no, that is not correct.