UK and Georgia

Denis MacShane Excerpts

Wednesday 8th June 2011 Westminster Hall

[Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab)]

It is a great pleasure to serve under you, Mr Betts.

I declare an interest as chair of the all-party parliamentary group on Georgia. I have just returned from Georgia’s European week, which I attended with my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston (Ms Stuart) and the shadow Europe Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Caerphilly (Mr David). Other friends in the Georgia group, from other parties, were in the country earlier this year.

It is also a pleasure and honour to have the Chairman of the Georgian Parliament, Mr David Bakradze, with us. He has already met Mr Speaker, and we will be meeting the Foreign Secretary this afternoon.

I have a series of questions to put to the Minister, and I hope that he will write to me if he cannot deal with them in his speech.

Ninety years ago, Georgia was a peaceful, social democratic nation, which had escaped the clutches of imperial Russia. Schools, trade unions, co-operatives and votes for women were all established on the Black sea, but that was intolerable to that son of Georgia Mr Stalin, who sent in the Russian army to crush the spirit of freedom and to re-colonise Georgia.

Fast forward eight decades, and Russia looked unhappily on the rose revolution in Georgia, just as it looked unhappily on the orange revolution in Ukraine and on efforts in the other Baltic nations once occupied as Russian colonies to establish their freedom fully. In 2008, matters came to a head with the invasion of Georgia by Russian land, sea and air forces. The tiny Georgian forces fought valiantly and actually shot down a number of Russian aircraft.

However, having occupied large swathes of Georgian territory, Russia did not seek a repeat of 1921. One reason was the courage of the then Leader of the Opposition, now the Prime Minister, who flew to Georgia in August 2008 with other European leaders to show personal solidarity. At the time, the Prime Minister told the “Today” programme:

“One of the most important things we continue to do is stand by Georgia, give Georgia support—support in terms of rebuilding the infrastructure that’s been smashed and broken, support in saying ‘You will be welcome as members of the EU and NATO.’”

I believe that the Prime Minister was speaking for the broad mass of the British people in 2008, when he referred on the BBC to the

“alternative of appeasing Russia and saying, ‘All right then, Ukraine, Georgia, the Baltic states, these are your backyard, you can do what you like there and we’ll just turn a blind eye’. I think that would make our world far less stable, far less secure. Russia has to understand that she has lost an empire, just as we lost an empire. You have to come to terms with that and it does take time.”

I am not sure whether, during the remainder of this Parliament, I shall again quote at such length and with such agreement the words of the Prime Minister, but he was right then, and his comments remain right today. Will the Minister repeat the Prime Minister’s words, and confirm that the Government’s view is still that the presence of Russian troops and the de facto annexation of the territory of a sovereign UN member state—Georgia—is not acceptable?

The Prime Minister will be aware that two small countries, which were no doubt offered suitable inducements, have offered to recognise the occupied Georgian territories of South Ossetia and Abkhazia. One is Nicaragua, which is currently seeking to negotiate an EU association agreement. Will the Government make it clear to our good friend, Baroness Ashton, that the UK will veto any such association agreement while Nicaragua maintains its recognition of the illegally occupied sovereign territory of Georgia? Might is not right, and the fate and future of both South Ossetia and Abkhazia require careful handling and a new approach. It cannot be right, and does not serve the interests of the people who live there or the hundreds of thousands of internally displaced persons, notably from Abkhazia, who are keen to return home, to maintain the fiction that these are independent states.

There will soon be elections in both Russia and Georgia. On past visits, the Georgian President, Mikhail Saakashvili, told me that he would not seek to stay in office or imitate Mr Putin, who seems to alternate between being President and Prime Minister of Russia in the time-honoured way of pre-1989 Russian rule. I hope that Mr Saakashvili maintains that principled decision, because one of the curses of the post-Soviet political space is the failure to understand the need to have what the French call alternance—a change of Government and a change of leader. The desire of leaders to stay in power for ever debilitates all democratic politics.

There is a genuine problem with the lack of coherent opposition in Georgia. Many are opposed to Mr Saakashvili, but even the most diehard of his opponents would find it hard to disagree that the opposition spends as much time in opposition to itself as to Mr Saakashvili. It seeks short cuts to power, such as staging street protests with windy claims that Mr Saakashvili will be ousted.

Last year, I was in Georgia when the opposition created a tent city around the Parliament, and stopped Georgian MPs attending to their parliamentary business. I listened to the speeches then, just as I saw with hon. Friends the demonstrations last week. I gently pointed out that it is a denial of democracy to try to prevent elected parliamentarians from attending their Assembly, Congress or Parliament. The demonstrations 10 days ago turned nasty when a handful of opposition militants covered their faces in cagoules—we might call them balaclavas—which are the symbol of the extreme right throughout Europe’s political history, and used sticks to attack people and the police. The police certainly overreacted and tragically there were deaths, just as there was a death at the London G8 demonstration three years ago.

The Minister for Europe rightly called for an investigation, and there must be no effort to brush what happened under the carpet, but equally the message must be that deliberate provocation aimed at inducing an overreaction with a view to destabilising the country is the antithesis of democratic European politics. I should be grateful if the Minister will write to me with details of the serious allegations that the people who were arrested in Georgia, some of whom were carrying explosives, were apparently sent on the order of forces outside the country to plant small bombs as part of a deliberate strategy to create tension and destabilisation in Georgia.

[Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

My right hon. Friend referred to the demonstration in Tbilisi some 10 days ago, and to elements of the demonstration who were intent on causing trouble. Will he confirm what I saw there: individuals with sticks, weapons and balaclavas who were clearly intent on making trouble rather than having a peaceful demonstration?

[Mr MacShane]

My hon. Friend is right. He never misses a good demonstration if there is one to witness or take part in, and his witness statement is an important correction to the view that the violence came only from the state security services, even if in my judgment—I have spent too much of my life at too many demonstrations—there was an overreaction by the state authorities.

A strategy of deliberate tension will not help the people of Georgia, who need bread and roses, jobs and freedom, and the patient establishment of democratic norms and values. This morning, Mr Speaker did his opposite number, the Chairman of the Georgian Parliament, the honour of receiving him, and I hope that the Minister will tell the House today that the Minister for Europe plans to visit Georgia shortly. We must not forget the sacrifice of Georgian troops standing side by side with our own in Afghanistan. Five have paid the ultimate sacrifice, and I am glad that the Under-Secretary of State for Defence, the hon. Member for Aldershot, has recently paid a visit. As we approach the third anniversary of the Russian invasion and the Prime Minister’s solidarity trip to Georgia, I hope that he will go there again soon. Will the Minister say something about the plans that the Foreign Office might have for a ministerial visit?

Georgia is a loyal friend at the United Nations, and when I met President Saakashvili 10 days ago, I urged him to recognise Kosovo because, for understandable if mistaken parallels, Tbilisi is on the same wavelength as Moscow, not its Euro-Atlantic friends. It would be an important diplomatic step for Georgia to line up with this country, and the bulk of the European Union and the world’s democracies, by offering diplomatic recognition to Kosovo.

Mr Saakashvili has insisted that Georgia will never be the first to use force in the event of further military aggression or pressure from Russia. He has said that he is willing to meet President Putin and Prime Minister Medvedev in any place and at any time to negotiate a settlement. Will the Minister assure us that when the Prime Minister goes to Moscow in September, he will urge the Russian leadership to meet Mr Saakashvili and negotiate on a Government to Government basis, instead of continuing with the highly ad hominem abuse that Moscow directs towards the Georgian leader in a manner that demeans the honour and dignity of a great nation such as Russia?

Will the Minister speak to coalition Members of Parliament who serve on the Council of Europe? Many members of the Council were shocked to find that Conservative MPs sit in the same group as Kremlin-controlled Russian MPs, and thus failed to support moves to hold Russia to account for its invasion and occupation of Georgia. As the Minister is a Liberal Democrat, perhaps he will have a word with one or two—at least one—of his Liberal Democrat colleagues at the Council of Europe who take a similar position and seem keen to get into bed with Russia.

Will the Minister confirm that the installation of S300 missiles in Abkhazia is in violation of the ceasefire agreement that was signed with President Sarkozy on behalf of the European Union in August 2008? Will he confirm that the EU, the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe, and other international monitors, are denied full access to Russian occupied territories in Georgia, in violation of the Sarkozy-Medvedev agreement? I have seen the new internal line of occupation and European division deep in Georgian sovereign territory. How sad to look through sandbagged bunkers over barbed wire, at Russian soldiers under a Russian flag glaring down their gunsights at me. Surely that is not the Europe in which we wish to live two decades after Soviet communist tyranny came to an end.

[Mr John Whittingdale (Maldon) (Con)]

In case the right hon. Gentleman’s earlier remarks suggested that there are differences between the parties on this matter, let me say that a few months ago I went to Georgia with the Inter-Parliamentary Union. I, too, visited the internal border with South Ossetia and saw the Russian troops through binoculars. Admittedly, they were standing around looking rather bored, but I agree that it is wholly unacceptable that such a throwback to the old Soviet empire exists today, with Russian troops occupying part of an independent sovereign state.

[Mr MacShane]

The hon. Gentleman is right. I wish that more people could see that Russian occupation, and the sandbags, barbed-wire divisions, checkpoints and full-scale occupation that we thought had disappeared 20 years ago. It is a shocking sight in contemporary Europe.

Will the Minister convey to the Minister for Europe my request, and that of many hon. Members, that he goes to Georgia to see the situation for himself, and will he ask the Prime Minister to reaffirm UK support for Georgia? Why has the Foreign and Commonwealth Office cut the grant to the British Council in Georgia by nearly 50%? Surely we need more contact with Georgian civil society, not less. The Georgian economy is doing well and growing by more than 6% a year. As Professor Neil MacFarlane of Oxford University noted in a recent paper for the Royal Institute of International Affairs at Chatham House, on whose council I have the honour to serve:

“Economic performance since the 2008 war has been better than expected.”

That, he argues, reflects

“the Government’s improvement in economic governance since the rose revolution. The Saakashvili Government did a very impressive job of stabilising the political situation after the war.”

There are opportunities for UK business, especially in tourism, education and services, and I am seeking to establish contacts between the scrap metal industries in both our countries. It may be little known in London, but Britain and Georgia are experts in the business of scrap metal. Due to great demand, more steel was produced last year than in most of the previous century, so there is some economic opportunity for the northern regions of the UK and Georgia.

Georgia is wisely opening its borders to investment and abolishing visa requirements for its neighbours, and it is time that Britain liberalised its visa regime. In the current issue of The House magazine, Members can read an article by my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston about the visit she went on with me and our hon. Friend the Member for Caerphilly to Europe week in Georgia. She states that the EU should offer a type of European Free Trade Association deal to Georgia. It is for the four remaining EFTA member states to decide who can join them, although EFTA countries have to accept most EU directives and regulations, which may not be appropriate for Georgia at this stage of its development. My hon. Friend is right, however, to underline the need for Georgia to develop good relations with the EU. As ever, it is strange to go to a small nation such as Georgia and hear positive words about the EU, and then come home to listen to the whine of Europhobic comments from the Conservative party and the Europhobic media. Luckily, the Minister is a Liberal Democrat, so we will hear no such nonsense from him.

Russia’s policy is clear: Russia up, America down, and Europe out. I want to see a common EU policy in the Black sea region, and a common EU policy towards Georgia that aims to bring the country fully into the community of European nations. I hope that the Minister will instruct his officials to work towards that end.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Browne]

I am further reassured by that piece of expertise. It is important to have police forces which are not corrupt, which the public have confidence in and which strike the right balance in maintaining law and order without inappropriately extending the power of the state.

Although considerable progress has been made, I am sure our Georgian friends will readily agree that Georgia must keep up the pace of economic and political reform to realise her Euro-Atlantic aspirations. With parliamentary and presidential elections in 2012 and 2013, Georgia will be stronger for vigorous debate between the Government and the democratic opposition.

We are saddened by the loss of life and injuries caused on 26 May, when a demonstration in Tbilisi turned violent. The right hon. Member for Rotherham has given his analysis of that situation. The British Government are concerned about allegations of excessive force used against some protesters and journalists, and we urge the Georgian Government to ensure that there is a prompt and transparent investigation.

Equally, we are concerned by reports that some protesters were more interested in violent confrontation than peaceful protest. As the Minister for Europe has said, there is a place for legal protest and demonstrations in a democracy, but there can be no place for the organised violence that some, including the right hon. Member for Rotherham, believe was the characteristic feature of the protest on 26 May.

We strongly support Georgia’s independence and territorial integrity and its continued progress towards European Union and NATO integration. I take the point made by the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr David). As we can also see in the Balkans, there are many countries around Europe that are not members of the European Union but aspire to be members, which is an important lever for ensuring progress in those countries. We should bear that in mind during our internal debates in Britain. We are arguing Georgia’s corner strongly in negotiations on closer integration with the European Union, and in NATO we are backing Georgia’s efforts to meet the standards required for eventual membership.

We stand firmly with Georgia in its ongoing dispute with Russia over the breakaway regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia. When the Prime Minister, as the then Leader of the Opposition, visited Tbilisi in August 2008 in the immediate aftermath of the conflict with Russia, he highlighted the importance of holding Russia to account for its actions. More than two and a half years after the conflict, we continue to press the Russians to comply fully with the Sarkozy-Medvedev agreements that ended the fighting in 2008—in particular, by allowing access for the EU monitoring mission to Georgia’s breakaway regions and withdrawing troops to pre-conflict positions.

[Mr MacShane]

May I reiterate the importance of making the position clear to Nicaragua? Vanuatu, wherever that is—it may still be above the sea somewhere—has also recognised South Ossetia. But in the case of Nicaragua, which is a serious country, it cannot expect to have full agreement with the EU while it is still playing these childish games of interference in the Black sea region.

[Mr Browne]

Perhaps I will gloss over the right hon. Gentleman’s observations on Vanuatu. I accept that Nicaragua has a foreign policy that is occasionally erratic. I will ensure that his points are understood and that the people in the Foreign Office who consider Latin American policy do not do so while divorced from considerations about Georgia and, more widely, European issues.

The British Government work hard to keep the unresolved conflicts on the EU’s agenda and continue to fund the secondment of UK personnel to the EU monitoring mission. That mission has played a crucial role in promoting stability and preventing renewed fighting in the region. However, Russian pressure on Georgia is persistent and persistently provocative. We remain concerned about the Russian military build-up in Georgia’s breakaway regions. Georgia has shown admirable restraint, and we encourage it to continue to do so as a solution is sought.

Georgia’s conflicts will not be resolved overnight. Resolution will require patience and engagement from all sides in the long term. We continue to encourage the Georgian leadership to engage the South Ossetians and, in particular, the Abkhaz. Direct dialogue with the breakaway regions is the only way to prevent their de facto absorption into Russia and to lay the foundations for a negotiated solution, however distant that prospect may appear at the moment.

The United Kingdom has worked alongside other international partners to encourage a policy that does not isolate the breakaway regions but gives them incentives to maintain links with Georgia. We will continue to support projects that provide people-to-people contacts that help to improve understanding between Georgians, Abkhaz and South Ossetians; support confidence building and conflict resolution; and improve the human rights and welfare of the affected populations. Again, we recognise that that will not be easy, but we will encourage Georgia to take a pragmatic and flexible approach to engagement that will help to persuade the people of Abkhazia and South Ossetia that they stand to benefit from co-operation with Tbilisi.

The United Kingdom continues to support fully the Geneva talks, which remain an important tool for conflict resolution. They remain the only regular forum at which all parties to the conflict meet. The regularity of the meetings, combined with the local-level incident prevention and response mechanism meetings, helps to manage tensions among Georgia, Russia and the breakaway regions. Despite the slow rate of progress, we believe that it is very important to continue the talks, thus keeping open the prospect of building on areas of common interest—in particular, human rights and internally displaced persons.

The British Government believe that the European Union plays a crucial role in preserving stability in Georgia through the presence of the EU monitoring mission, an EU special representative and a comprehensive package of financial assistance. The UK continues to offer strong political support to the EUMM, currently providing 17 monitors and headquarters staff. The presence of the EUMM has been a crucial stabilising factor, helping to defuse any potentially serious situations along the administrative boundary lines. With the demise of the United Nations observer mission and the OSCE mission in Georgia, the EUMM is the only remaining international observer mission on the ground, although it does not have access to the breakaway regions. We continue to raise that with Russia.

The prospect of greater integration with the European Union, particularly on trade and visas, remains a key driver of Georgia’s reform programme, as I have mentioned. Negotiations on an EU-Georgia association agreement started last year. We look forward to further progress on that and towards achieving a deep and comprehensive free trade agreement, while encouraging and assisting Georgia to meet the necessary technical requirements. Progress in those areas will help to improve trade and prosperity and bring about closer ties through culture and education.

On that note, I acknowledge the points made by the right hon. Member for Rotherham with regard to the British Council. I value the work of the British Council. It is very important that Britain’s values, if I can put it in those terms—I am talking about our soft power—are extended through the work of many institutions, of which the British Council is one. Georgia’s culture and traditions are part of the European heritage, and the younger generation in particular are attracted by what we might describe as broad European values. There is a particular interest in learning English, which is now officially the second language of Georgia. It is obviously in our interest that that interest is encouraged. I am pleased to note that the British Council is working to take advantage of that demand, building on its strong reputation locally. I hope that the British Council will be able to continue to exercise a strong presence in Georgia.

I reiterate the United Kingdom’s strong support for Georgia. The Prime Minister underlined that when he met President Saakashvili at the Lisbon summit last November. Only this week, the Minister with responsibility for international security strategy, the Under-Secretary of State for Defence, the hon. Member for Aldershot (Mr Howarth), was in Tbilisi to discuss Georgia’s NATO aspirations and to thank Georgia for its invaluable support for our joint efforts in Afghanistan. The right hon. Member for Rotherham rightly recognised that, and the Minister for Europe—the right hon. Gentleman also asked about this—plans to visit Tbilisi later this year.

All that adds up to a strong bilateral relationship, which we hope to develop even further as we continue to support Georgia’s desire for deeper European Union integration, assist the Georgian reform process and work to enhance trade links. Again, I thank the right hon. Member for Rotherham for the opportunity to discuss these issues. I also thank other hon. Members who take an interest in Britain’s relations with Georgia and matters in Georgia more generally, and I encourage them to continue to take an interest.

In conclusion, I again extend a warm welcome to our Georgian friends who are here in London. I know that the Foreign Secretary is very much looking forward to meeting the Speaker of the Georgian Parliament here in London this afternoon.