Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Dehenna Davison and Eddie Hughes

Monday 20th February 2023 Commons Chamber

[Dehenna Davison]

I am not quite sure whether I understand the hon. Lady’s question. If she would like to write to me, I will certainly follow up in writing.

[Eddie Hughes (Walsall North) (Con)]

22. What assessment has he made of the impact on energy efficiency of the part L uplift in the building regulations.

Social Housing and Regulation Bill [ LORDS ] (Second sitting)

Debate between Dehenna Davison and Eddie Hughes

Committee stage
Tuesday 29th November 2022 Public Bill Committees

[Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Eddie Hughes (Walsall North) (Con)]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Dehenna Davison]

Two to choose from—I give way to my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, East.

[Dehenna Davison]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I will respond to him and then perhaps I will have answered the question that my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall North wanted to ask. It is right that the regulator must have the right powers in place to deal with breaches of its standards. With regard to competence and conduct, the Bill enables the regulator to require providers to produce and implement a performance improvement plan to be approved by the regulator. If a provider fails to implement a plan, the regulator can issue an enforcement notice and levy an unlimited fine if that notice is not complied with. So the regulator will have teeth to ensure the kind of conduct that we expect. I hope that that answers the question from one hon. Friend.

[Eddie Hughes]

Anyone who has listened to the Grenfell Tower inquiry—especially the podcast, which provides a great summary of the challenges that were faced—will know that a number of tenants encountered members of staff who simply were not appropriately qualified to carry out their role. As a result, the tenants did not get the experience, support and help that they so rightly deserved. So, while I fully appreciate that it is appropriate to recruit for aptitude—this is a vocational area for many—it is incredibly appropriate to make sure that staff are trained for their role.

[Dehenna Davison]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. His expertise on this matter is welcome to all of us, and I thank him for all the work that he did as Minister on this really important body of work. He is right. That is why we have taken this away and are looking at what more we can do around professional qualifications, without that risk of reclassification. I hope that, following Committee stage, I will be able to report on what progress we have made before we reach Report stage.

It is important that we get this process right. We will continue the dialogue that we have already started with key stakeholders such as Grenfell United, Shelter and the CIH before we issue a statutory consultation on the direction itself. The regulator will then also consult on its draft standard before it comes into force. This Committee can be assured of our intent to take on board fully the views of both tenants and providers in developing the way forward. I have already spoken a little about compliance and sanctions if standards are not complied with, so I will leave that point there.

To summarise, the Government’s ambition is to build an empathetic, qualified and skilled social housing workforce. We want to bring about a wholesale organisational and cultural change, which we all recognise is desperately needed. We remain firm in our belief that our approach and the clause will deliver the professionalisation of the social housing sector, but we will of course continue to explore options for qualification requirements that would not trigger reclassification and would deliver the right outcomes for tenants. I commend the clause to the Committee and, on the basis of what I have outlined, I ask the shadow Minister not to move his new clause.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dehenna Davison]

As the shadow Minister rightly outlined, new clause 5 seeks to ensure representation of tenants and councillors on the board of registered providers. While I agree with the sentiment behind the amendment—that we must ensure that the voice of social housing tenants is heard loud and clear in matters that affect them—I am afraid I must disagree that it is the best approach to take. 

Tenants speak from their lived experience, which can bring a different and valuable perspective to that of other board members. They should be listened to at all stages of decision making. However, we do not think that mandating the inclusion of a tenant board member is necessarily the best way to achieve that aim.

[Eddie Hughes]

I have some experience of this, having been a councillor representative on the board of Walsall Housing Group at a time when it was a prescribed position. I distinctly remember a couple of instances prior to my being on the board when the Conservative spot was decided by random voting or people having been coerced into filling it. That seemed completely inappropriate.

When I became chair of the board of that group, we took a different view—to adopt a skills-based approach, determining that some of the skills would be best met by those who had experience of being a tenant. It was not prescribed that we were saving places for tenants; it just became a natural order of business that they would have the appropriate skills and experience to fill some of the vacancies on the board. Speaking from personal experience, too prescriptive an approach can sometimes lead to unintended consequences: people filling a place just because they need somebody under a certain heading to fill it.

[Dehenna Davison]

I thank my hon. Friend for setting out his own experience. It is an area the Government are very concerned about, and it comes back to the Committee’s debate today about how prescriptive we should be in the Bill.

Some housing providers already have tenants on boards, and they have been effective in championing residents’ voices, but this is not the case for everyone. Tenant board members are required to put their legal duties as a board member before their role as the representative for residents, which can cause confusion and conflict. Other structures can be just as successful and involve a more diverse range of tenants in decision making. That can range from formal consultations, focus groups and local events to appointed board observers and membership of panels focused on scrutiny, procurement or complaints that feed in at all stages of the decision-making process. We want to retain a flexible approach that promotes tenant empowerment and engagement for all tenants without forcing the statutory duties of a board member on a single individual.

The Regulator of Social Housing already sets standards for the outcomes that landlords must achieve in respect of tenant engagement. It will review, consult and update them as part of the new consumer regulation regime. The regulator will also ask landlords to demonstrate how they engage with tenants and require them to report on tenant satisfaction measures, as part of their assessment and inspection of landlords in the new regime. That is important because for the first time it makes tenants’ experiences a measure by which housing providers will be judged and held to account by the regulator.

There will also be improved transparency measures for tenants to be able hold their landlord to account. They need to know how it is performing and what decisions it is making. That information needs to be easily available. Earlier today we touched on the access to information scheme that we will introduce. That will enable tenants of private registered providers to request information from their landlords.

In addition, we have made funding available for a residents’ opportunities and empowerment programme, which will provide training to residents across the country on how to engage effectively and hold landlords to account. I hope that I have provided enough reassurance for the shadow Minister to withdraw his new clause.

Social Housing (Regulation) Bill [ LORDS ] (Second sitting)

Debate between Dehenna Davison and Eddie Hughes

Tuesday 29th November 2022 Public Bill Committees

[Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Eddie Hughes (Walsall North) (Con)]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Dehenna Davison]

Two to choose from—I give way to my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, East.

[Dehenna Davison]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I will respond to him and then perhaps I will have answered the question that my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall North wanted to ask. It is right that the regulator must have the right powers in place to deal with breaches of its standards. With regard to competence and conduct, the Bill enables the regulator to require providers to produce and implement a performance improvement plan to be approved by the regulator. If a provider fails to implement a plan, the regulator can issue an enforcement notice and levy an unlimited fine if that notice is not complied with. So the regulator will have teeth to ensure the kind of conduct that we expect. I hope that that answers the question from one hon. Friend.

[Eddie Hughes]

Anyone who has listened to the Grenfell Tower inquiry—especially the podcast, which provides a great summary of the challenges that were faced—will know that a number of tenants encountered members of staff who simply were not appropriately qualified to carry out their role. As a result, the tenants did not get the experience, support and help that they so rightly deserved. So, while I fully appreciate that it is appropriate to recruit for aptitude—this is a vocational area for many—it is incredibly appropriate to make sure that staff are trained for their role.

[Dehenna Davison]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. His expertise on this matter is welcome to all of us, and I thank him for all the work that he did as Minister on this really important body of work. He is right. That is why we have taken this away and are looking at what more we can do around professional qualifications, without that risk of reclassification. I hope that, following Committee stage, I will be able to report on what progress we have made before we reach Report stage.

It is important that we get this process right. We will continue the dialogue that we have already started with key stakeholders such as Grenfell United, Shelter and the CIH before we issue a statutory consultation on the direction itself. The regulator will then also consult on its draft standard before it comes into force. This Committee can be assured of our intent to take on board fully the views of both tenants and providers in developing the way forward. I have already spoken a little about compliance and sanctions if standards are not complied with, so I will leave that point there.

To summarise, the Government’s ambition is to build an empathetic, qualified and skilled social housing workforce. We want to bring about a wholesale organisational and cultural change, which we all recognise is desperately needed. We remain firm in our belief that our approach and the clause will deliver the professionalisation of the social housing sector, but we will of course continue to explore options for qualification requirements that would not trigger reclassification and would deliver the right outcomes for tenants. I commend the clause to the Committee and, on the basis of what I have outlined, I ask the shadow Minister not to move his new clause.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dehenna Davison]

As the shadow Minister rightly outlined, new clause 5 seeks to ensure representation of tenants and councillors on the board of registered providers. While I agree with the sentiment behind the amendment—that we must ensure that the voice of social housing tenants is heard loud and clear in matters that affect them—I am afraid I must disagree that it is the best approach to take. 

Tenants speak from their lived experience, which can bring a different and valuable perspective to that of other board members. They should be listened to at all stages of decision making. However, we do not think that mandating the inclusion of a tenant board member is necessarily the best way to achieve that aim.

[Eddie Hughes]

I have some experience of this, having been a councillor representative on the board of Walsall Housing Group at a time when it was a prescribed position. I distinctly remember a couple of instances prior to my being on the board when the Conservative spot was decided by random voting or people having been coerced into filling it. That seemed completely inappropriate.

When I became chair of the board of that group, we took a different view—to adopt a skills-based approach, determining that some of the skills would be best met by those who had experience of being a tenant. It was not prescribed that we were saving places for tenants; it just became a natural order of business that they would have the appropriate skills and experience to fill some of the vacancies on the board. Speaking from personal experience, too prescriptive an approach can sometimes lead to unintended consequences: people filling a place just because they need somebody under a certain heading to fill it.

[Dehenna Davison]

I thank my hon. Friend for setting out his own experience. It is an area the Government are very concerned about, and it comes back to the Committee’s debate today about how prescriptive we should be in the Bill.

Some housing providers already have tenants on boards, and they have been effective in championing residents’ voices, but this is not the case for everyone. Tenant board members are required to put their legal duties as a board member before their role as the representative for residents, which can cause confusion and conflict. Other structures can be just as successful and involve a more diverse range of tenants in decision making. That can range from formal consultations, focus groups and local events to appointed board observers and membership of panels focused on scrutiny, procurement or complaints that feed in at all stages of the decision-making process. We want to retain a flexible approach that promotes tenant empowerment and engagement for all tenants without forcing the statutory duties of a board member on a single individual.

The Regulator of Social Housing already sets standards for the outcomes that landlords must achieve in respect of tenant engagement. It will review, consult and update them as part of the new consumer regulation regime. The regulator will also ask landlords to demonstrate how they engage with tenants and require them to report on tenant satisfaction measures, as part of their assessment and inspection of landlords in the new regime. That is important because for the first time it makes tenants’ experiences a measure by which housing providers will be judged and held to account by the regulator.

There will also be improved transparency measures for tenants to be able hold their landlord to account. They need to know how it is performing and what decisions it is making. That information needs to be easily available. Earlier today we touched on the access to information scheme that we will introduce. That will enable tenants of private registered providers to request information from their landlords.

In addition, we have made funding available for a residents’ opportunities and empowerment programme, which will provide training to residents across the country on how to engage effectively and hold landlords to account. I hope that I have provided enough reassurance for the shadow Minister to withdraw his new clause.