Citizens’ Assemblies and Local Democracy

Debate between Debbie Abrahams and Simon Hoare

Tuesday 16th April 2024 Westminster Hall

[Simon Hoare]

The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. One of the great strengths of single-issue pressure groups is that they bring a whole wealth and range of in-depth knowledge on a particular system or issue. The downside is that a single-issue pressure group or campaigner does not look at the larger picture or take the balance. It does not have to govern by choosing. I have seen a lot of evidence to suggest that membership of single-issue pressure groups has gone up, but the mixed potpourri—the Woolworths pick ’n’ mix—of joining a political party, where people have to give and take and trim and tack, has proven less popular, particularly among younger people.

[Debbie Abrahams]

I think that there is a misunderstanding. Citizens’ assemblies are not about replacing decision making, but about trying to provide an evidence-based rather than lobby-based approach for a particular vested interest. Evidence is provided to the participants of the citizens’ assembly that is balanced and comprehensive and allows people to come to a consensus on a recommendation to policymakers, who then decide. This discussion has completely misrepresented what citizens’ assemblies are about. They are about the engagement of people with a particular policy issue.

[Simon Hoare]

I am not entirely sure that the hon. Lady has helped her cause with that further amplification of what she means by citizens’ assemblies. The point that the right hon. Member for Warley made was the right one: what will the outcome be? If one stands as an independent candidate, free from a party Whip and from supporting a party programme in government, one can of course seek the views of constituents all the time: “How would you like me to vote on this?” However, it fundamentally changes the Burkean principle of having a representative rather than delegatory democracy. I think our representative democracy, as set out in Burke’s famous address to the electors of Bristol, still holds us in pretty good stead.

I do not make this point facetiously: this Chamber is a citizens’ assembly in a representative democracy. We have elections to it at some point this year. In a couple of weeks, we will have elections to citizens’ assemblies, be they for the mayoralty, for police and crime commissioners or for our local councillors. We talk about the word “democracy”, but let us remind ourselves of the history of that word. It comes from the Greek words “demos”, meaning people, and “kratos”, meaning power—power of the people. We are the citizens’ assembly and we can represent the concerns of constituents in a whole variety of ways, through appeals to Ministers, all-party parliamentary groups, debates and the like.

I am all for involving as many people as possible. The hon. Member for Oldham East and Saddleworth was absolutely right to highlight the particular need to harness the intellect, enthusiasm and interest of our younger generations, who occasionally—slightly lazily, slightly arrogantly—turn off and turn away: “Oh, they’re all corrupt. They’re all this, they’re all that. Nobody listens.” When we ask, “Well, when was the last time you made a representation, asked to see someone, joined a lobby or whatever?”, they say, “Oh, I don’t bother with any of that.”

I say the following as somebody who voted remain in the referendum. After the event, there was a large pro-EU demonstration outside. I fell into conversation with about 20 young people, all of whom were of voting age. Only 10 had voted. The others told me that they had posted stuff on Facebook or put things on Twitter. I then had to point out to them that the returning officer did not count posts on Facebook or posts on Twitter; they counted ballot papers. That is how to effect change.

Universal Credit Roll-out

Debate between Debbie Abrahams and Simon Hoare

Tuesday 24th October 2017 Commons Chamber

[Debbie Abrahams]

As my hon. Friends are saying, it is a loan. I will return to that, but I want to make that important point.

[Simon Hoare (North Dorset) (Con)]

The hon. Lady nailed it in a remark that she made a moment or so ago. There have been just three sitting days since the Opposition day debate. Were we to presuppose that Her Majesty’s Government would seek to respond to that debate—let us not presume that—would it be fair, in all honesty, to expect them to do so within three sitting days?

[Debbie Abrahams]

I will come on to that in a moment. The precedent was, unfortunately, set by the current Government.

As I said, the Government have had three sitting days to respond to the legislature. It might be useful to quote the right hon. Member for Ashford (Damian Green), who is now First Secretary of State. At the last such defeat for a Government, in 2009, he raised an immediate point of order, in which he asked the then Deputy Speaker:

“In the wake of that devastating vote for the Government, have you had any indication that Ministers intend to come to the House and make an immediate statement about how they propose to change their policy, as the House has now spoken clearly?”—[Official Report, 29 April 2009; Vol. 491, c. 931.]

Within three and a half hours, the then Government made a statement.

The right hon. Gentleman had changed his tune a bit by last Thursday, when he said that all

“governments have to abide by the rules of parliament. We’re a parliamentary democracy,”

but that

“as the Speaker said last night, motions like that are non-binding motions, so they don’t engage government activity particularly.”

He cannot have it both ways.

These events have raised a more fundamental constitutional question, given reports that the Government no longer intend to require Conservative Members to vote against Opposition day motions.

Universal Credit Roll-out

Debate between Debbie Abrahams and Simon Hoare

Wednesday 18th October 2017 Commons Chamber

[Debbie Abrahams]

This is the reality that people are facing; this is happening in the areas my colleagues have mentioned, and our concern is that, as this is rolled out to 55 areas this month, the situation will get even worse.

[Simon Hoare (North Dorset) (Con)]

rose—

[Debbie Abrahams]

I will give way one last time.

[Simon Hoare]

I am most grateful to the hon. Lady, who is being enormously kind with her time. The motion calls for a pause in the roll-out. Is she going to tell us what the Labour party would do during that pause period?

[Debbie Abrahams]

The hon. Gentleman is pre-empting my speech, but I will happily propose exactly what we would like to do in conjunction with the current Government, whose programme this is.

From the start, there were a number of serious design flaws, which the Work and Pensions Committee, of which I was a member, raised in 2012. They included, first, the fact that UC applications would be “digital by default”; in other words, applications could only be made online. There are still several issues with that, not least the assumption that everyone is computer-literate or has ready access to getting online. We all remember the scene in “I, Daniel Blake” where somebody who had not used a computer before was trying to do so, and we saw the real stress and difficulties he found.

Welfare Reform and Work Bill

Debate between Debbie Abrahams and Simon Hoare

Tuesday 23rd February 2016 Commons Chamber

[Simon Hoare (North Dorset) (Con)]

rose—

[Debbie Abrahams]

I am sorry; I am not going to take any more interventions.

Further cuts are bound to be made as the hasty consultation on the personal independent payment earlier this year is pushed through. The Government have tried to regenerate the economy on the back of the poor and disabled. Work does not protect against poverty, and the poor and disabled have been made to pay the price. This is about cuts to our social security system.

[Simon Hoare]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Debbie Abrahams]

No, I will not.

Instead of denigrating claimants in our social security system, we should recognise the important role that the system plays. Like the NHS, the social security system is based on principles of inclusion, support and security for all, assuring dignity and the basics of life for all, should any one of us become ill or disabled, or fall on hard times. Many hon. Members in all parts of the House believe that the Bill is a step too far, and I urge them to support Lords amendments 1, 8 and 9.

Welfare Reform and Work Bill

Debate between Debbie Abrahams and Simon Hoare

Tuesday 27th October 2015 Commons Chamber

[Debbie Abrahams]

My hon. Friend makes an entirely valid point. Disabled people will find it more and more difficult to live fulfilling lives that enable them to make contact and fulfil their potential, which everyone should have the right to do, so it will be a disincentive.

[Simon Hoare]

I am chairman of the all-party group on multiple sclerosis. I entirely understand the hon. Lady’s concern and, indeed, the sort of representations made by the hon. Member for Blaydon (Mr Anderson). However, does she take heart, as I do, from the fact that Ministers are part of a party that brought forward pioneering legislation on disability rights, which should provide comfort that Ministers on the Treasury Bench will make sure that no policy will leave people behind?

[Debbie Abrahams]

Yes, it is right to acknowledge the Government’s role in bringing in the Disability Discrimination Act 1995, but this Bill flies in the face of that legacy. I really hope that by the end of today, the Government will be able to provide some reassurance, because to date there has simply been none for disabled people.

In Committee, the Minister said that these cuts would not affect people currently on the ESA WRAG, but does that mean that people diagnosed with progressive conditions, but assessed after the Bill is enacted, will be deemed to have a different form of the progressive condition? Will they require less support, or do the Government finally accept that, apart from being dehumanising and exacerbating people’s health conditions, the work capability assessment is not fit for purpose and needs a complete overhaul so that people with progressive conditions are not placed in the ESA WRAG? I would really appreciate some clarity on that point.

Surely if the Government were serious about supporting disabled people into work, there would be measures in place to support into work those disabled people who are able to work. How many employers will be engaged? Although the Disability Confident scheme is a good first step, only 68 employers are currently active in it, and they will certainly not be able to support the 1.3 million disabled people who are able to and want to work. Do the Government intend to extend Access to Work beyond the 35,000 disabled people it helped stay in work or into a new job last year? What is going to happen about the appalling ratio of one disability employment adviser for 600 disabled people? [Interruption.] What estimates are there of the impact on the employment of disabled people of this measure and the reduction of the 30% disability employment gap?

--- Later in debate ---

[Simon Hoare]

Hitherto, the hon. Lady has been making a very thoughtful and considered speech. It may not be up to me, as a new Member, to say this, but the sentence that she has just uttered has fundamentally undermined the cause of her argument, and I invite her to reconsider it.

[Debbie Abrahams]

I appreciate that it is strong language, but I can only provide the hon. Gentleman with the evidence. In 2010, the use of the term “scrounger” by the mainstream press had increased by more than 330%, and it has remained at that level. We should always be mindful of the language that we use as leaders, and of how it is perpetuated.

[Debbie Abrahams]

I used that language to draw attention to the issue in the House, and more widely. I did so partly because I am sure I am not the only one to remember the autumn statement two or three years ago in which the Chancellor, at the Dispatch Box, referred to “closed curtains” when people were going out to work. It was quite clear what that implied. I use such language very carefully, and I repeat that its use in the media has increased by 330%. We all have a responsibility in this regard, including the country’s leaders.

The innuendo is that people with a disability or illness might be faking it or feckless. That is grotesque. As a former public health consultant, I speak with some knowledge. It is recognised that incapacity benefit and ESA are good population health indicators, and the release of the Government’s own data has proved the point. Disabled people in the ESA WRAG are a vulnerable group who need our care and support, and not our humiliation.

[Simon Hoare]

rose—

[Debbie Abrahams]

I will give way to the hon. Gentleman one more time.