NHS and Social Care Commission

Debate between Debbie Abrahams and Caroline Flint

Thursday 28th January 2016 Commons Chamber

[Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab)]

I congratulate the right hon. Member for North Norfolk (Norman Lamb), my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester West (Liz Kendall) and the other Members who secured this debate. We have heard some thoughtful speeches and different views from both sides of the House. I reflect on the comments of the hon. Member for Faversham and Mid Kent (Helen Whately), whom it is a pleasure to follow. I, too, believe that the commission, although in principle a good idea, would be a distraction.

My hon. Friend the Member for Walsall South (Valerie Vaz) talked about what was different in 2009. In 2011, just after the coalition Government formed, we had the opportunity to hold a cross-party roundtable. It was proposed by my right hon. Friend the Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham), but rejected by the coalition. It comes down to what many people have said about the difficulty of taking politics out of such a debate. It is down to political will.

There are a few points I want to talk about. The hon. Member for Bracknell (Dr Lee) made the point—and, although coming from a different viewpoint, I fundamentally agree with him—about having different ideological perspectives. I want to focus for a moment on the Health and Social Care Act 2012. I served on two Bill Committees with the hon. Member for Stafford (Jeremy Lefroy)—who really embodies the term “honourable Gentleman”, so I am sorry I disagree with him on this point. At the time, the Opposition made real efforts to explore and provide the evidence base for the implications of the Bill and what would happen, and I am afraid that much of that has come true.

All this is based on the fact that the Government, and at that time the coalition Government, have a different view of the NHS and, I suspect—although I cannot recall whether this is on the record—how it should be funded. We believe absolutely passionately—we fought the general election on this basis, as we did on a number of issues—in a publicly funded NHS, funded through general taxation, with the NHS as a preferred provider. We have committed to repeal the Health and Social Care Act, because we believe that its basis—section 75, which compels all providers to put their contracts out to tender—is wrong, and it has been proven wrong.

[Caroline Flint]

My hon. Friend is right: we do support a publicly funded NHS, but it has also been Labour party policy in social care that we think people should make a contribution. The problem with the politics is that we cannot come to a defined space where we can all agree on what is a reasonable contribution. We have to be up front about these things, because we need a system, particularly in social care, where we have to look at other models of how we provide those services and what will be expected for people to finance them, do we not?

[Debbie Abrahams]

I would not disagree with my right hon. Friend, but to pretend—and that is what it would be—that we could reach that conclusion on a cross-party basis would be an illusion. That does need to happen, but we come from completely different perspectives, and that needs to be considered.

In the first year of the legislation, contracts worth £16.8 billion of public money went out to tender under the Health and Social Care Act, with 40% going to private healthcare companies. We could track that because it was on Supply2Health, a public website that was taken down, which meant we could no longer monitor it. Care UK won 41 contracts worth £110 million; and again, the association of donations to different political parties is on the record. Some £5 million has been wrapped up in funding for competition lawyers. In my constituency in Oldham, my community trust, which also provides our mental health services, has said that the amount of time and money wrapped up in competing for tenders has increased inexorably. That is a distraction, and having a commission, getting away from these central points, would also be a distraction. As I say, we come from different ideological perspectives.

Energy Prices

Debate between Debbie Abrahams and Caroline Flint

Wednesday 19th October 2011 Commons Chamber

[Caroline Flint]

I was pleased to be able to have a meeting with John Hills this morning to discuss his report. I would not want to make a direct comparison in this regard, but it is telling that more people die of cold in the winter than die on our roads. This is about recognising that, while certain actions will take time, we need to determine what can be done here and now. The sad thing is that Ministers are lecturing families and firms about insulating and saving, even though they have cut Warm Front by 70% and will not give anyone any information about their green deal for homes, which will not be ready for another year anyway. Labour invested more than £300 million in Warm Front during our last year in office, helping families to keep warm and save energy. We helped home owners on modest incomes to modernise their heating systems, but today that scheme has a budget of just £110 million, and it is due to end in April 2013. The Government could take action right now: they could also stand up to the energy companies and tell them to help people to help themselves. In doing that, they could perhaps save some lives.

[Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab)]

I agree with my right hon. Friend that we should be challenging the big six over their excessive profits. She is also right to point out, in relation to the Government’s responsibilities, what Warm Front did to reduce fuel poverty. What does she think about the Government’s cutting of winter fuel payments and replacing social tariffs with a poorly designed system? We must press the Government about those changes.

[Caroline Flint]

My hon. Friend brings to the House the expertise of a public health expert, and she makes an excellent point. How people live, and the homes and communities that they live in, are important to their physical well-being. For example, 80-year-old widows will lose £100 this winter that would have helped to heat their homes. And by the way, the Prime Minister had the brass neck to tell the public to check out free insulation, but he forgot to say that the insulation schemes run by the energy companies exist only because Labour legislated to require them to spend £300 million every year on reducing fuel poverty.