Business of the House

Debate between Debbie Abrahams and Andrea Leadsom

Monday 10th December 2018 Commons Chamber

[Andrea Leadsom]

There is really nothing unusual in using the deferral of a vote to tomorrow. It is used every time we have a First Reading when scheduling a Second Reading.

[Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab)]

It is unacceptable for the Government to change business of this magnitude with so little notice. It is equally unacceptable that we still have no date for a meaningful vote, so will the Leader of the House commit to come to the House on Thursday with a date for this vote?

[Andrea Leadsom]

As I have said to a number of hon. Members, the Prime Minister is determined to address the expressed concerns of many Members of this House, and once she has been able to do so, she will return to the House. That will be as soon as possible.

Business of the House

Debate between Debbie Abrahams and Andrea Leadsom

Thursday 11th October 2018 Commons Chamber

[Andrea Leadsom]

My hon. Friend, who is a strong champion for his constituency, is right to raise what sounds like a very frustrating situation. He will appreciate that I cannot comment on that specific planning case, but I can tell him that although planning committee members are not obliged to follow the recommendations of officers, the law does require that planning decisions are made in accordance with the development plan unless material considerations indicate otherwise, so local opposition or support is not in itself a ground for refusing or granting planning permission unless for valid planning reasons. My hon. Friend might want to seek an Adjournment debate to discuss the specific case directly with Ministers.

[Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab)]

Given today’s intervention by Sir John Major, the former Conservative Prime Minister, which absolutely slams the roll-out of universal credit in spite of what the Leader of the House has said, will the Leader of the House reveal whether the draft regulations—not what is in the press—will be amended before they come to this House, when exactly they will be coming to this House, and whether, as my hon. Friends have asked, they will be debated on the Floor of the House? The damage being done now, let alone the damage that will be done next year, cannot be overestimated.

[Andrea Leadsom]

I say again to the hon. Lady that the Government are determined to continue with the roll-out of universal credit because it is helping more people back into work. [Interruption.] The Government have also, however, been determined to improve the system as we roll it out, which is why it has been piloted. Following lessons learned from the pilot roll-outs, we have raised advances to 100% of the first month’s payment; we have made it quicker and easier to get those payments so that anybody who needs it can get paid on the very first day of their claim; we have scrapped the seven-day waiting period; and we have formed a new partnership with Citizens Advice to help people to claim universal credit. All these measures have been taken as a result of the sensible proposals made in this place and by constituents. Nevertheless, the roll-out will take place, and we are making sure that no one sees a reduction in their benefits when they are moved on to universal credit.

Business of the House

Debate between Debbie Abrahams and Andrea Leadsom

Thursday 6th September 2018 Commons Chamber

[Andrea Leadsom]

I certainly agree with the hon. Gentleman that we all spend far too much time on technology, and that is particularly true of young people. It is interesting that a number of schools are now saying to their students that they cannot have their devices during the course of the day. That is a contentious subject, but I certainly support such a move. He is right that it is a really key issue. In a sense, we are undertaking a massive experiment, because there is no regulation around this matter. I encourage him to seek a Backbench Business debate so that all hon. Members can share their views and perhaps we can then debate them with Ministers.

[Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab)]

Today’s Resolution Foundation report calling for universal credit roll-out to be stopped is the seventh such call in the past six months. I have heard from constituents about applications that have never been received and documents that have been lost, which is delaying by several weeks—on top of the designated five weeks—when they receive their first payment. Clearly, the system is not fit for purpose, so can we have a debate in Government time on a new social security policy and the need for a new social contract with the British people?

[Andrea Leadsom]

Universal credit is designed to help. It is a better, simpler and more flexible system that helps more people into work. [Interruption.] The hon. Lady might not like it, but that is the truth of it. Under the old system, if a person worked a minute over 16 hours, they lost their whole jobseekers’ allowance. Universal credit requires a person to make only one application, and it makes sure that work always pays.

Research published this month shows that universal credit means £8 billion a year extra for the economy, an extra 200,000 people in work and 130 million more working hours every year for those already in a job. She raises an important point, which is about the roll-out of universal credit. She will be aware that the Government have listened very carefully to the evidence in this place and from users. We have raised advances to 100% of the first month’s payment so she is not right to say that people are having to wait five weeks; that is simply not the case. We have made it quicker and easier for people to get their first payments so that everyone who needs it can get their money on the very same day. We have introduced an overlap for those already receiving housing benefit, to ensure that they have a smooth transition on to the new system. We continue to look very carefully at the roll-out to improve it, but to simply say that we should halt it is to deny many people this opportunity. Mr Speaker would not allow me the time, but I could give the hon. Lady countless examples of people who have really benefited from universal credit, getting into work for the first time.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Debbie Abrahams and Andrea Leadsom

Thursday 25th June 2015 Commons Chamber

[Andrea Leadsom]

We are very focused on removing all the potential obstacles to the project, including by having conversations with the European Commission on state aid issues. Our foot is firmly on the accelerator and we will do everything we can to support the project.

[Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab)]

9. What steps she is taking to help households improve their energy efficiency.

Amendment of the Law

Debate between Debbie Abrahams and Andrea Leadsom

Thursday 19th March 2015 Commons Chamber

[Andrea Leadsom]

I apologise if I misunderstood the right hon. Gentleman’s comment. Nevertheless, Help to Buy will provide support for young people in his constituency looking to get on the housing ladder.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole (Annette Brooke) gave an interesting insight into her experience as an economics teacher, particularly in respect of the terrible time of our exit from the ERM. I was working in a dealing room then, and like her I have always thought that financial stability is key to our security, our jobs and our future. As she knows, I agree totally with her about the vital importance of interventions to support the mental health of children, mums and babies in the perinatal period, and I thoroughly congratulate her on her work in that area.

On the hon. Member for Easington (Grahame M. Morris), the best I can say is that I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Daventry (Chris Heaton-Harris). Although I disagree with what the hon. Gentleman said, he is too courteous for me to pick a fight with him about it. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Daventry on two other points—first, that Northampton Saints are an excellent rugby team, and secondly, that it is people and businesses across the UK that, through their hard work and aspiration, deserve the credit for our economic recovery.

Finally, the hon. Member for Oldham East and Saddleworth (Debbie Abrahams) talked about the biggest increase in self-employment in 40 years, and then somehow suggested it was a bad thing. I hope her aspiring new business owners were listening. In truth, under this Government, the richest 20% of households are contributing in cash terms over four times more than the poorest 20%.

[Debbie Abrahams]

For clarity, I said that although some people might want to adopt the lifestyle, it had to be recognised that the average salary of people who are self-employed is about £10,000.

[Andrea Leadsom]

I am glad that the hon. Lady has clarified what she meant.

I would like to tackle head-on the lazy idea held by many Labour Members that when a country grows, it is the Government who do the running. It is not the Government; it is businesses and hard-working individuals.

In this Budget, as in all previous fiscal statements, this Government have demonstrated our pro-business, pro-growth credentials. That means more tax credits for key sectors, whether they be energy-intensive heavy industries or creative industries maintaining Britain’s status as a cultural centre of the world. It means further action to stimulate investment in the North sea through investments and tax cuts, and a long-term strategy for superfast broadband, enabling the next step in the technological revolution.

Yesterday, my right hon. Friend the Chancellor announced that next April we will abolish national insurance altogether for employing a young apprentice. We will be holding a major review of business rates, reflecting the fact that the old system needs to be reviewed so that it works better to support aspiring business owners in our country. He announced the abolition of class 2 national insurance contributions for the self- employed, and the abolition of the annual tax return altogether. I can tell you, Madam Deputy Speaker, that I had phone calls to my office from two constituents, one of whom said that the Government’s Help to Buy ISA will persuade them to vote for me, while the other said that the abolition of the annual tax return will encourage them to do the same. On the basis of my own small opinion poll, this is already making a difference.

Bankers’ Bonuses and the Banking Industry

Debate between Debbie Abrahams and Andrea Leadsom

Wednesday 25th February 2015 Commons Chamber

[Andrea Leadsom]

That is just another typical Opposition ploy. At that point, the Conservative party was in opposition and the Labour party was in government. It is absolutely unconscionable for the Labour party to suggest that the Opposition of the day should have saved the Labour Government from their own excesses.

[Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab)]

Will the Minister give way?

--- Later in debate ---

[Andrea Leadsom]

My hon. Friend is quite right. It is extraordinary that Labour Members have the cheek to come to the House and suggest that Conservative Members are somehow responsible.

I want to draw to the House’s attention the very prescient quote from the former Prime Minister when, representing the previous Government, he addressed the City in his Mansion House speech in 2002:

“What you as the City of London have done for financial services, we as a Government aim to do for the economy as a whole.”

And didn’t they just? It is absolutely extraordinary that under the “intensely relaxed” Labour Administration, bankers were rewarded for taking excessive risk, and if they failed, were allowed to get away with it—heads they win, tails the taxpayer loses.

[Debbie Abrahams]

Will the Minister give way?

--- Later in debate ---

[Andrea Leadsom]

My hon. Friend is exactly right that the Opposition are simply trying to recycle something as a distraction. I am truly delighted that the motion gives me the opportunity to set out the wide-ranging measures that this Government have taken to sort out the appalling legacy of the Labour party on banks and remuneration. We have taken an extraordinarily wide-ranging set of measures to sort out a mess left, once again, by a Labour Government.

[Debbie Abrahams]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for ultimately giving way. Will she remind the House how much more the Government are borrowing now compared with 2010?

[Andrea Leadsom]

The hon. Lady will know that the Government have taken steps to bring down significantly the amount we are borrowing each year to get our economy on the road to recovery after the disaster caused by the Labour party.

To return to the point of this debate, the real fact is that the public are absolutely right to be furious about the behaviour and misconduct of banks. It still feels as though there are fresh examples every day of the shameful practices that went on in the bad old days. The public will want to know what this Government have done to sort out the mess left by the previous Government.

I can tell the House that, under this Government, we have the toughest remuneration regime of any major financial centre in the world; we are making banks raise their standards, rebuild their reputation and get back to the job they used to do prudently and respectably for centuries; and we are making sure that we never go back to the bad old days of banking.

EU Working Time Directive (NHS)

Debate between Debbie Abrahams and Andrea Leadsom

Thursday 26th April 2012 Westminster Hall

[Andrea Leadsom]

Thank you, Mr Howarth. Occasionally it is difficult to remember that we are not having a conversation.

The point about the opt-out is that, under the working time directive, individuals can opt out of the maximum 48 hours per week if they choose to do so—they cannot be compelled to do so.

[Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab)]

Is the hon. Lady suggesting that we opt out of, for example, co-ordination on public health strategy or communicable diseases? Co-ordinating at an international level on bird flu and other pandemics is hugely important.

[Andrea Leadsom]

All I am saying is that, under the Lisbon treaty, member states that do not like certain legislation have the opportunity to club together and to propose that the European Commission look at it for possible deletion or significant amendment. That happened with the working time directive at two points in the past, in 2004 and 2010, but the attempts to amend it came to naught. The great tragedy is that with 27 member states there is simply a Chinese whispers effect. Someone says, “This is ridiculous, it is harming our national health service”; everyone agrees, “Yes, it’s ridiculous”, and therefore an amendment is proposed; but by the time it has gone around 27 member states, it is completely lost and gets nowhere. That is the fundamental problem with negotiating amendments.

My original point was about the importance of the time line of the working time directive. In 1990, the European Commission tabled the proposal for the working time directive as a health and safety measure. In November 1993 the UK was outvoted 11 to one at the European Council negotiations. The European Commission stated that the working time directive was

“a practical contribution towards creating the social dimension of the internal market”—

it was all about health and safety for employees, and employees in the real economy overworking; it was not intended to have the profound impact it has had on the national health service. David Hunt, who was Employment Secretary under the then Conservative Government, said that he would fight the legislation and not accept it. He tried hard, by going to the European Court of Justice to challenge the legal basis of the directive as health and safety legislation, but the UK was outvoted.

In 1996 the ECJ ruled against the UK, and Labour implemented the working time directive in 1998. The directive requires a maximum working week of 48 hours, a rest period of 11 consecutive hours a day, a rest break when the day is longer than six hours and a minimum of one rest day per week, as well as the statutory right to four weeks’ holiday. Such a list of requirements highlights the directive’s complete inflexibility; it clearly cannot be applied to absolutely every type of worker in our economy. In the end, the European Union had to admit that there were certain exceptions, which is why in some countries trainee doctors are treated as autonomous—in other words, self-employed. That is used as a means to get round the rules, because it is never going to be possible to enforce that kind of rigidity on people who are self-employed. There are all sorts of unintended consequences from a prescriptive and damaging set of rules.

In his response, will the Minister confirm whether the NHS has caused some of those problems—not necessarily deliberately—by offering contracts to doctors and junior doctors that are subject to a maximum of 48 hours? We should remember that the NHS is not allowed to invite new employees to opt out of the 48-hour working week at the same time as they sign their contract, because of fears of coercion. Does the Minister have a view about whether the NHS has created part of the problem by telling junior doctors and other health workers in their contracts that they will be paid for a 48-hour week, and then inviting them to opt out at a later date? There is a wealth of evidence to suggest that many doctors are working hours that are unpaid because their contract allows them to be paid for only 48 hours a week. Perhaps the Minister will comment on that in his response.

--- Later in debate ---

[Andrea Leadsom]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend. As my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol North West pointed out, representatives of doctors and NHS staff do not agree among themselves about whether they support the European working time directive. Certainly, the Royal College of Physicians, NHS Employers and the Royal College of Surgeons are concerned not only that the working time directive causes a problem for doctors and patients, but that it does not do what it sets out to do, which is to deal with the exhaustion of doctors themselves. The Royal College of Surgeons says:

“We know from our members that working in a full shift pattern is more tiring when compared to working using an ‘on-call’ system, and creates a working environment that is impairing to patient safety.”

The British Medical Association believes that the European working time directive is entirely right in all of its manifestations. Patient and doctor representatives need to resolve the question of where they stand, as representatives of health service workers, on the implications of the working time directive.

Turning to the options for change, the Fresh Start project has done a great deal of work on this. Certainly, there are things Britain could do in isolation to try to improve the situation, and we have heard about some of them today. Some doctors in other European Union countries have two contracts, which has been used as a way of getting round the working time directive. We have heard about all sorts of workarounds that Britain does not tend to use, and the Government might want to consider what other countries have done. Certainly, MEPs in Europe have told me that some doctors will take on two 48-hour contracts, which seems to be going back to dangerous practice. Nevertheless, if an impossible situation is created, we end up with people just trying to defeat the problems.

A far more likely scenario is that we negotiate for change with other members that are unhappy with the consequences of the working time directive. We should get together with the 16 other member states that are determined to see change and that have negotiated an opt-out, so that we can get the directive changed specifically in relation to the NHS and make our economy more flexible.

What we are proposing is a concrete option for change. At the time of the European members’ attempt to get their recent fiscal consolidation agreement into the main treaties, there will be an opportunity for Britain to go to the EU Council with its own proposal for change. This is a clear opportunity, which has arisen from the need for fiscal consolidation in other EU countries, for Britain to prepare a list of changes to various elements of the treaties that it would like to see, and to go all out to negotiate those changes when the time comes, in three or four years. In line with the proposal put forward at the all-party parliamentary group for European reform, I recommend a triple lock whereby Britain arranges to opt out.

[Debbie Abrahams]

This is an interesting and useful debate. Is the hon. Lady aware of the recent systematic review—the highest level of evidence we have—that was inconclusive on the impact of the working time directive? I think there has been only one UK study undertaken since 2009, and one recommendation in the systematic review is that there should be more research. Is that not one of the outcomes we should be pressing for here, so that we have a full, evidence-based understanding that will enable us to ensure that policy is adhered to correctly?

[Andrea Leadsom]

I thank the hon. Lady again, but a mistake that many Opposition Members fall into is to think that only the European Union can legislate to protect the British NHS. Of course, that is simply not the case. Britain is perfectly able to legislate for its own NHS needs without the support of the European Union.

[Debbie Abrahams]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Andrea Leadsom]

I would like to finish now. I have given way to the hon. Lady twice.

The first lock would be for the UK to argue that it should opt out completely from the social policy section of the EU treaties. The second lock should be for the UK to have the ability to opt out of any future EU proposal that it believed would impact intolerably on its social and employment law. The third lock would be for Britain to negotiate that the ECJ should not be allowed to have jurisdiction over ruling whether the UK was right to opt out of that legislation. That is the only way, once and for all, to enable Britain again to have control over its own working time hours—not only for the NHS, but for the future of the whole of our British economy.