Business of the House

Dawn Butler Excerpts

Thursday 14th November 2024 Commons Chamber

[Lucy Powell]

I thank the hon. Member for that important question. We are pleased that we will see Second Reading of the Financial Assistance to Ukraine Bill next week. That important measure will continue our ongoing support to Ukraine, which is unshakeable and long-term. She is right to raise that continued support.

Homes for Ukraine has been one of the best schemes that the country has embarked on. Many families across the country have taken part in it and found great value and purpose in providing homes for Ukrainians. The Government will continue to support councils and others to ensure that that scheme can continue in the long term, for however long it takes, to support Ukrainians while the war is ongoing.

[Dawn Butler (Brent East) (Lab)]

I have received a number of emails about the winter fuel allowance and access to pension credit, so I have joined forces with accredited organisations to help people access and sign up to pension credit. Does the Leader of the House agree that it is vital that we get as many people as possible signed up to pension credit?

[Lucy Powell]

I thank my hon. Friend for doing that important work. It is vital that we raise awareness of pension credit and all the support it can bring to those who are eligible not only through the winter fuel allowance but in several other areas. It can make many eligible pensioners thousands of pounds a year better off. I fully support her endeavours. That is something that the Government have been doing nationally as well.

Business of the House

Dawn Butler Excerpts

Thursday 24th October 2024 Commons Chamber

[Lucy Powell]

All I can say to the right hon. Gentleman is lucky him for sitting on the programme board for so long. In all seriousness, the safety of this building and of the people who work here is paramount for the House authorities, for me and for the Speaker—you and I discuss it regularly, Mr Speaker. The right hon. Gentleman is correct that we must address these issues. I hope that he will continue to offer his advice and thoughts through the programme board in the coming months; I am not sure whether his party will nominate him to do so, but I hope it will.

[Dawn Butler (Brent East) (Lab)]

In my borough of Brent, the average private rent has increased by an eye-watering 33% to £2,121 a month. We have the highest eviction rate in England and Wales. I am inundated, as I am sure many Members are, with emails about mould and disrepair. The Government’s Renters’ Rights Bill is very welcome, but does the Leader of the House agree that we need to talk more about rent controls?

[Lucy Powell]

My hon. Friend raises an important matter for her constituency. She is right about the Renters’ Rights Bill, which has finally come forward and had its Second Reading under this Government. It is much stronger than the previous Bill. It will end no-fault evictions, will give renters and tenants more enhanced rights than they have had in a generation and will tackle issues with quality and mould. It will be an important Bill, and I am sure that my hon. Friend will want to get stuck into the debates as it makes progress through the House.

Business of the House

Dawn Butler Excerpts

Thursday 10th October 2024 Commons Chamber

[Lucy Powell]

I join the right hon. Member in paying tribute to the eminent parliamentarians he mentioned, whom we recently lost. It is important that this House comes together to do that.

I try to give many presents to this Chamber, which was why I was keen to announce the long-term recess dates; I am sure we can all agree that was a present. The right hon. Gentleman is right that the Government and I, as Leader of the House, are committed to the principle that statements should be made to Parliament first, and should be made to Parliament as soon as possible, if the House is not sitting. I take the firm view that Secretaries of State should make those statements. I work very hard to uphold those principles. Of course, there are times when announcements need to be made during the recess for international or national reasons, so it is right that the Foreign Secretary came here at the very first opportunity to make his statement to the House.

[Dawn Butler (Brent East) (Lab)]

Warm birthday wishes to the Leader of the House. I welcome the announcement that Black History Month will be debated in Government time. I hope that the decision has been made for perpetuity, so that no matter the colour of the Government, the debate will always happen. This year’s theme is “reclaiming the narrative.” Last week, I posted a poem, “Of the first ones”, on my social media platform. It received a lot of support and some wonderful messages, but also a lot of racist abuse. Researchers at the Natural History Museum have stated that

“scientists are sure that homo sapiens first evolved in Africa”,

so “reclaiming the narrative” might also mean resetting the narrative. Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is important to debate such subjects as Black History Month, so that we have an even greater understanding of history?

[Lucy Powell]

I thank my hon. Friend for using an opportunity at Prime Minister’s questions yesterday and on other occasions to ask for a debate about Black History Month. It is thanks to her and colleagues’ efforts that we have been able to announce that debate today, so I pay tribute to her. I am sure the issues she raises will be discussed during that debate. It is vital that the narrative is reframed, and that we expose the attitudes she describes on social media and elsewhere, which are fuelled by ignorance and hate, and put an end to them.

Business of the House

Dawn Butler Excerpts

Thursday 25th April 2024 Commons Chamber

[Penny Mordaunt]

First, may I send my thoughts and sentiments to all those affected by the appalling events in Wales? I hope that the community recovers swiftly. May I also place on record my sadness at the loss of our former colleague Frank Field, who was MP for Birkenhead for more than 40 years? When I was going for candidate selection for the Conservative party, one of the questions I was asked was who in the Labour party I most admired, and my answer was Frank Field. Many knew him for his relentless work combating poverty and its causes, but he had many other interests that he pursued with equal vigour. I was particularly pleased to work with him on trying to secure the building of new ships in the UK, and he was also a fellow Brexit campaigner. The connection he had to the people he served, and the duty that he felt towards them and never wavered from, was profound, and I send my deepest sympathy to all who knew and loved him.

May I also pay tribute to Dame Elizabeth Gardiner DCB KC for her service as first parliamentary counsel? She was the first woman to hold that role in its 150-year history, and she has had a very busy eight years. I place on record my thanks to her for her service and wish her well. I also congratulate Jessica de Mounteney, who succeeds her.

The hon. Member for Manchester Central (Lucy Powell) asks me about the SNP. I am sure that we will come to that shortly, but the Greens leaving the coalition provides the Labour party with an opportunity. I thought a memo had gone out to Labour Front Benchers saying that they should go easy on the SNP, with a view to perhaps forming some sort of coalition or alliance with it north of the border.

The hon. Lady and her party talk a good talk—she just has on childcare, ensuring that people have a warm and secure home, and levelling up the Tees Valley—but it is the Conservatives who are delivering the largest expansion of free childcare. It is the Conservatives who have built 2.5 million new homes and are getting people on the housing ladder, and it is the Conservative Mayor Ben Houchen who has delivered regeneration for the Tees Valley and an employment rate 3% above the national average.

In response to the point about the need for more and better competition, the Conservatives are introducing legislation and schemes to strengthen the arm of the consumer, such as FairFuelUK’s PumpWatch. Labour’s answer reduces competition further and is a return to the British Rail sandwich. The hon. Lady touts the move that was announced today. The shadow Transport Secretary, the hon. Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Louise Haigh), says that the change will be done at zero cost, but we read that it will actually require £10 billion of additional funding and will not deliver any fare decreases or improved services. It is socialist ideology over practicality. Even Lew Adams, ASLEF’s former secretary-general, said:

“in the public sector, all we got were cuts, cuts, cuts. And today there are more members in the trade union, more train drivers, and more trains running. The reality is that it worked, we’ve protected jobs, and we got more jobs.”

The hon. Member for Manchester Central raises the issue of Rwanda. In response to the British Government’s need to control foreign nationals’ access to the UK, the Conservatives have been doing the hard yards of institutional and legal reform. We have introduced legislation establishing the Rwanda scheme, and the Home Secretary is working to modernise the international frameworks that govern it. In contrast, Labour has voted hundreds of times against that legislation, and says that it will scrap the Rwanda scheme even if it is working. Instead, it is pursuing a quota scheme that would see immigration rise. We will never do that.

The hon. Lady talks of change, but the Labour party has not changed at all. While Labour Members have been scoffing prawn cocktail, they have been devising 70 new business burdens that they plan on introducing. While posing next to submarines, Labour Members—several Front-Bench Members—voted to scrap our deterrent and are refusing to match our baseline on defence spending. While Labour Members criticise and sneer at those who celebrate the St George’s flag, they are allowing some of them to occupy the Labour Front Bench. Today’s Labour party is packed with the same old socialists and a few new plastic patriots, and no amount of window dressing—

[Dawn Butler (Brent Central) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. [Interruption.]

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

Order. Before the Leader of the House finishes, I can take a point of order if it relates directly to the matters that we are discussing.

[Dawn Butler]

Absolutely, Madam Deputy Speaker. The Leader of the House is misleading the House. [Interruption.] The Leader of the House just said—

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Order. Hold on. The hon. Lady cannot accuse the Leader of the House of misleading the House. That would be quite wrong and, if the Leader of the House had done something along those lines, I would have stopped her immediately. If the hon. Lady means that she disagrees with the Leader of the House, that is a different matter.

[Dawn Butler]

Madam Deputy Speaker, it is a matter of fact that Labour Members celebrated St George’s day. We all put it on our social media, and the leader of our party has made a point of wrapping himself in the flag. The Leader of the House is completely incorrect in what she just said to the House.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I think the hon. Lady means that anything that the Leader of the House might have said would have been inadvertently misleading.

[Dawn Butler]

I hope that the Leader of the House will correct the record right now.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I wanted to take that point of order while the Leader of the House was still on her feet. I am quite sure that the Leader of the House did not intend to make any misdirection. Would she care to take that point?

--- Later in debate ---

[Penny Mordaunt]

I thank my hon. Friend for drawing the House’s attention to this new venture? I am sure we all want to send our good wishes to Clive and his team on their new business venture. Wrexham’s international profile has grown in recent times, which is providing a strong hook for local businesses to take advantage of global markets and our new trade agreements.

I thank my hon. Friend for all her work to ensure that her constituency is on the map. The investment zone will make Wrexham the absolute leader in the field of advanced manufacturing, as well as in the creative and digital sectors. We expect this to encourage further growth, with up to £160 million of support for the zone, which will help to protect tens of thousands of existing skilled jobs and create many thousands more. I congratulate my hon. Friend on her part in it.

[Dawn Butler (Brent Central) (Lab)]

The counter-disinformation unit, now known as the national security online information team, has a remit to tackle the greatest national security risks facing the UK, and misinformation and disinformation cause risks to elections. Disturbingly, a racist letter riddled with misinformation and disinformation was posted to all Hindus in Brent and Harrow. It attacked our current Mayor of London and our Assembly member, Krupesh Hirani, incorrectly stating that Sadiq and Krupesh do not care about Hindus, which is a complete and utter lie. With one week to go until the mayoral election, will the Leader of the House condemn the letter and ensure that the NSOIT investigates it? May we have a debate on the Floor of the House on the NSOIT’s role?

[Penny Mordaunt]

I thank the hon. Lady for raising that. She will know that there are ways in which any concerns about things such as election literature can be addressed. Clearly, if she thinks a criminal offence has been committed, she should raise that with the police. I suggest that that is the best course of action for her.

Points of order

Dawn Butler Excerpts

Wednesday 31st January 2024 Commons Chamber

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for withdrawing that accusation, because it lets us at least take that part out of this specific issue. It may be that somebody made that comment, but I really do not care what they said or how they said it. They should not be saying anything at all while seated when someone else is asking a question or the Prime Minister is answering it. Everyone in this House ought to bear in mind that what is said and done in here has a much wider audience, and we ought to be setting an example of being reasonable and careful in the way that we use words and phrases, and never being inflammatory.

[Dawn Butler (Brent Central) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. My point of order also relates to Israel and Gaza. ITV News recently broadcast a video showing the killing of an unarmed civilian in Gaza who was waving a white flag—the international symbol of peace. It is not the first time unarmed people have been killed in Gaza while raising white flags; in fact, three Israeli hostages were brutally killed while topless and waving a white flag. This is deeply concerning to me, as I am sure it is to many people in this House. An Israel Defence Forces commander has indicated that the IDF was responsible, saying,

“There are mistakes, it is war.”

This incident could potentially constitute a war crime. How can we ensure that the Government come to this House to assure us that this incident will be properly investigated and that UK-supplied weapons were not used, and to set out the steps being taken to ensure that Israel follows the ruling from the International Court of Justice?

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I have listened carefully to the hon. Lady, and the point she makes is not a point of order for the Chair—not at all. She is making a very serious point about a tragic incident among many thousands of tragic incidents that have occurred over the past few months, but it is not a point of order for the Chair.

The hon. Lady is raising a point that she wants to raise with Ministers. The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office, the right hon. Member for Sutton Coldfield (Mr Mitchell), was recently at the Dispatch Box making a statement on Gaza, and I anticipate it is very likely that a Foreign Office Minister or a Minister from the Ministry of Defence will be here again within a few days to make a further statement. If not, Opposition Front Benchers and others have been most assiduous in asking urgent questions to ensure that Ministers come to the House to answer these important questions.

The hon. Lady is not asking a question that I can deal with from the Chair; she is asking a question that she wants to ask of a Minister. If she wants to ask a question of a Minister, there are various ways she can do that: she can put down an urgent question; she can ask for an Adjournment debate; she can speak to Members on her own Front Bench about having an extended debate in Opposition time—I will not list them all. There are many, many ways in which the hon. Lady can do that, but I cannot answer her question from the Chair. It is not a point of order.

Business of the House

Dawn Butler Excerpts

Thursday 22nd June 2023 Commons Chamber

[Penny Mordaunt]

That does sound inappropriate. I have some experience of dealing with similar companies in my constituency. It is difficult for colleagues when some of our concerns refer to, for example, issues of national security or other matters that are slightly outside the Planning Inspectorate’s direct lane. I will write to the Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities and ask for some advice. It is difficult for colleagues—we do not wish to put Ministers who may make decisions further down the line in a position that they cannot be in, but we also need advice. I shall see what advice I can get for my hon. Friend so that she can ensure that the right thing happens.

[Dawn Butler (Brent Central) (Lab)]

I thank the Leader of the House and all Members for their warm words about the Windrush generation. Actions speak louder than words, and as the right hon. Lady said, the personal impact that Government policies have on individuals can be forgotten. With 74% of claims not being resolved, more people are likely to die before their claims are resolved. Will the Leader of the House not just speak to, but work with the Home Secretary to simplify and accelerate the Windrush compensation scheme?

[Penny Mordaunt]

I thank the hon. Lady for what she said. The media have highlighted this week cases such as she described. Whether it is the Windrush scheme or other compensation schemes that are administered by the Government, it is very much understood that the payments need to be swift. We do not want to add further injury to the damage already done. I know that the Home Secretary takes the matter very seriously, but I assure the hon. Lady that I will do all I can from my office to ensure that people get their compensation in the shortest possible time and to facilitate any cases that hon. Members have where that is not happening.

Privilege: Conduct of Right Hon. Boris Johnson

Dawn Butler Excerpts

Monday 19th June 2023 Commons Chamber

[Dawn Butler (Brent Central) (Lab)]

We all owe a debt of gratitude to the Privileges Committee and its Chair, my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Camberwell and Peckham (Ms Harman), who has had to sit through some of the strangest speeches I have heard in this House. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Yardley (Jess Phillips) for mentioning Mina Smallman, who is an amazing woman who continues to fight to keep the memory of her daughters alive and to change the system, whether that be the police or other systems.

This debate is all about democracy. The trust that should exist between the Government and those who are governed has been badly damaged. The question to every single Member of this House must be: how do we repair that damage? The way we do that is by demanding transparency, honesty and integrity from those who hold positions of power and those who stand at the Dispatch Box. The Leader of the House gave an impassioned speech saying just that. We must not tolerate the casual disregard for truth that has become the hallmark of this Government. It should shame us all.

We are honourable Members of Parliament. It is not just a title, but something we should hold dear. We should be honourable in what we do in this place. We should be honourable to the people we serve, because they have elected us. Democracy demands honourable conduct, and we have not seen much of that over the past few years. If we allow lies to go unchecked and deceit to become the norm, our democracy begins to crumble, and that is what has been happening. We sit here time and time again and see Ministers coming to the Dispatch Box. We all stand up and say, “That is not true, that is not true”, and we are told that we are not allowed to say that. We have to say, “They have inadvertently misled the House and they will have to come back to the House to correct the record”, but they never come back. They tell a lie, they sit down with a goofy grin on their face, they walk out and they never come back to correct the record, and that is a problem for our democracy.

This House must be able to speak truth to power. Honourable Members of this House must be able to stand up and say, “That is incorrect”, otherwise what is the point or the purpose? We must also not be so obsessed with the archaic rules of this House. We must be honest with ourselves and say, “We have got to challenge the rules of this House if they are not working.” We have to challenge the system of this House if it is not working. It is a nonsense that in this House we cannot call somebody a liar if they are lying. People say, “It will degrade the House and everyone will be calling each other a liar.” If people do not want to be called a liar, do not lie—tell the truth. That is the solution to the problem. The truth must prevail and integrity must be restored. All Members of this House are guardians of our democracy, and I am sorry, but we are not doing a good job; we must do much better, and this report does bring some of that back to us.

It is ironic that two years ago I was thrown out of Parliament for calling Johnson a liar, when if he was not such a weasel and had not resigned, he would have been thrown out of this place for 90 days for lying. Okay, yeah, it would have made me a little bit happy to see him thrown out of the House, but ultimately, it is not about that; it is about our system in this place, and we have to do better. It was not easy breaking the conventions of the House. I got a lot of abuse from some Members on the Government Benches, saying, “How dare she? Bleurgh bleurgh bleurgh.” [Laughter.] That was a Jacob Rees-Mogg impression. I talk about the aftermath of what that was like in my book, “A Purposeful Life”. Sometimes I wonder what the purpose of Parliament is if we cannot hold Ministers to account and if we are just going to allow them to lie. Johnson knew he was lying. We all knew he was lying, and he knew we knew he was lying, but the system protected him. We have got to change the system, so that the system does not protect the liar or the lies, but protects Parliament and our democracy.

[Florence Eshalomi]

My hon. Friend is making a passionate and honest speech. Honesty is the best policy. On the system protecting the former Prime Minister, as she alluded to, does she agree that while the motion we are discussing today is on privilege, that privilege is sometimes not afforded to other Members of this Parliament even though we are all elected in the same way? The privilege of saying and doing what we want is not afforded to some Members in this Chamber.

[Dawn Butler]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Some people’s privilege extends beyond this House. When they lie in this House, they also have the privilege of their mates in the newspapers and the media then protecting that lie and that privilege. They put that coat of protection around them. Our democracy needs to be strong enough to stop that happening and to expose it.

As we get ever closer to a general election, Ministers will try to whip up moral panic and begin to spread further lies. They will push this fake culture war, some of which we have seen on display today. We cannot wait two years for a Privileges Committee to find them guilty of lying or misleading the House, because that would be too late. The question has to be: what do we do, where do we go and who will stand up for democracy and truth? The former Prime Minister, the right hon. Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May), is no longer in her place, but she said that as a Prime Minister it was difficult to make decisions about friends. I understand that, because a Prime Minister might make a decision about somebody, then find themselves standing with them in the queue in the Tea Room and feeling bad about it. I completely understand where the former Prime Minister was coming from. The solution should be that we take that responsibility away from the Prime Minister and make it the responsibility of the House to decide when somebody breaks the ministerial code, because we cannot have, as we did, the Prime Minister deciding who is lying and who is not lying, when he was the chief liar himself. That responsibility should become the House’s responsibility.

I have re-tabled my early-day motion on that, which I first tabled in 2021, when it got 105 signatures. I hope more Members will sign that re-tabled early-day motion about how we talk about the ministerial code of conduct. To end, the parliamentary record shows that I was asked to withdraw from Parliament for calling Johnson a liar. I will be writing to the House asking whether that can be expunged, or whether some kind of amendment or addendum can go beside it to say that it was actually correct and he was a liar. I will do that, and I put that on record.

I will end on Winston Churchill, who I understand is Boris Johnson’s favourite politician and who said: “There can be no democracy without truth.”

Strengthening Standards in Public Life

Dawn Butler Excerpts

Wednesday 17th November 2021 Commons Chamber

[Thangam Debbonaire]

I thank the hon. Gentleman, but I must say the difference between this party and the Government party is that we are trying to do something about this. We have the proposals to do something about it. When we were in Government, as I will come on to in my remarks, we did a great deal to try to reform the House of Lords, and we made a lot of progress. On corruption and sleaze, we in the Opposition are the ones trying to change the system for the better.

[Dawn Butler (Brent Central) (Lab)]

While we are talking about corruption and sleaze, and Ministers and standards, does my hon. Friend, like me, find it rather strange that the Prime Minister is in charge of the ministerial code and gets to decide whether somebody has broken it?

[Thangam Debbonaire]

Yes; I am glad that my hon. Friend brought that up, because the Opposition have a problem with that. We have a problem with the fact that it is up to the Prime Minister to decide whether or not the ministerial code is investigated. That is a problem. As I said yesterday, the Government rejected the report put forward by the independent Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards and the Committee on Standards—a report that followed a very thorough investigation, undertaken entirely properly, with due consideration for the circumstances of the former Member for North Shropshire. That was wrong.

The Government then tried to overthrow the entire standards system, ripping up a 30-year consensus on how we enforce standards in this place, just to prevent sanctions on an “egregious case”—not my words, but those of the entire Committee on Standards—of paid lobbying. That was wrong. Cabinet Ministers then suggested that the Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards should resign. That was wrong. They tried to set up a sham committee with a named chair, notably on the Government side, and a majority of members from the Government side, to rig the standards procedure. That was wrong.

Okay, the Government are now belatedly trying to right those wrongs. The commissioner finally got an apology from the Business Secretary on Monday for his shameful comments.

Business of the House

Dawn Butler Excerpts

Thursday 18th March 2021 Commons Chamber

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

Indeed, allegedly, some people even keep tarantulas, though I do not believe that that particular right hon. Friend of mine is resident or has been resident in the House. Pets play a very important role in people’s lives and create great happiness. As has often been said in politics, “If you want to have a friend, buy a dog”, though I am sure that is not true for many right hon. and hon. Members. The Minister for Housing revised the national model tenancy agreement this January, making it easier for tenants with pets to find private landlords who will accept them. The key change was to remove restrictions on responsible tenants with pets, encouraging landlords to offer greater flexibility in their approach to pet ownership. A private landlord ought to accept a request from a tenant to keep pets where the landlord is satisfied that the tenant is a responsible pet owner and when the pet is suitable in relation to the nature of the premises at which it will be kept. This aims to strike the right balance between protecting private landlords from situations where their properties are damaged by badly behaved pets while ensuring that responsible pet-owning tenants are not unfairly penalised. I hope that helps my hon. Friend.

[Dawn Butler (Brent Central) (Lab) [V]]

Parliament needs to really do its job and take stock of the coronavirus legislation. Many will be surprised to learn that only 17 of the 398 statutory instruments made were under the Coronavirus Act 2020. It is estimated that Parliament needs at least two full days to scrutinise the Act. Will the Leader of the House please respect parliamentary scrutiny and ensure that Parliament has at least two full days to scrutinise it?

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

I think that there has been a great deal of scrutiny in this House throughout the pandemic. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care has made very frequent statements, and he is making another one shortly after I have finished today. We will allow a full day for the debate on Thursday, rather than the hour and a half that is the requirement for SIs under a Bill. So I think the amount of scrutiny that is being allowed is reasonable and that it will allow people to participate fully and raise all the points that they need to raise.

Participation in Debates

Dawn Butler Excerpts

Monday 16th November 2020 Commons Chamber

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

As the hon. Gentleman says from a sedentary position, that was embarrassing—I happen to agree with him on this occasion.

[Dawn Butler (Brent Central) (Lab)]

No—you’re embarrassing!

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

That is the risk of sedentary interventions; one hears part of them, but not necessary all of them in their fullness. I point out to the hon. Member for Brent Central (Dawn Butler) that that is why “sedentary chuntering”, as the former Speaker used to call it, is invariably not wise.

I turn back to the substance of the points made by the right hon. Member for Walsall South (Valerie Vaz). She did indeed write to me over the weekend. It was important that these issues were in the public domain and being considered and that the Government, as they said they would, were keeping them under review. As I also said, I was very moved by the contribution of my hon. Friend the Member for Chatham and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch). How could one not be? She is a remarkable person. It has to be said that my right hon. Friend the Member for Chesham and Amersham (Dame Cheryl Gillan) has also made similar appeals of a very moving kind.

It is important to recognise that the Government do listen to what right hon. and hon. Members are saying. The Government recognise the strength of arguments put forward and that there is a special set of people with the most troubling conditions who, under the current rules, which came in Thursday a week past, are being advised not to go to work. That was not the case before then, so when my right hon. Friend the Member for Chesham and Amersham made her requests, the Government guidance was not of that kind; it had changed by the time my hon. Friend the Member for Chatham and Aylesford made her appeal. It is an appeal that many Members feel should be answered, and that is what we are trying to do.

The right hon. Member for Walsall South rightly calls for there to be equality among Members, and indeed there is. Every Member who is not extremely clinically vulnerable is in the same position as other key workers, which is that, as long as their workplace is covid-secure—that is a fundamental qualification—they are not expected to stay away from work. I reiterate the point that I made to my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron) that we should expect to behave and be treated in the same way as other key workers. That is fundamental. The nation is facing this virus together, and there is not a different situation for us as opposed to other key workers.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

I completely sympathise with my right hon. Friend. It must be very frustrating not being able to participate in the activities of the House, and I hope that the proposals being brought forward to help those who are extremely clinically vulnerable will be of assistance. It is important that this House actively holds the Government to account and scrutinises them, and that the legislative programme is proceeded with, and that is exactly the balance that the Government are trying to achieve, by ensuring that scrutiny is properly done and that legislation is properly debated, and by allowing those who have exceptionally difficult circumstances to be able to participate more fully. But it is a balance, and it has been a balance as to what can or cannot be provided all the way through. We have had different requests in different directions for what the resources should be devoted to—hence the question raised by the hon. Member for Bath (Wera Hobhouse) as to whether we should close Westminster Hall and use the resources for something else. There is always a balance to be struck.

[Dawn Butler (Brent Central) (Lab)]

It has been fascinating listening to the Leader of the House, and I cannot help but think that he is not only gaslighting MPs but gaslighting the whole country in his responses. Paragraph 4.7 of “Erskine May” says that the Leader of the House is

“primarily responsible for the arrangement of government business”

and

“has a general responsibility to safeguard…the decencies and to ensure that Business arrangements have regard to what is right and proper in the interests of the House as a whole.”

It goes on to state:

“The leadership of the House is not a statutory office, and nor is the Leader of the House formally appointed by the Crown.”

I think the Leader is somewhat overreaching in his suggestion that he should decide who should take part in the debates in this House as a Member of Parliament. The current arrangements are not in the best interests of the House as a whole. I love being in the House of Commons and I love debating, but we are in a pandemic at the moment and covid is asymptomatic. This place is full of it, whether we like it or not, and we are putting 600 people at risk every time we are here.

My Remote Participation in House of Commons Proceedings (Motion) Bill could just be adopted by the Government instead of being debated in January. I urge the Leader of the House to adopt the Bill and meet me and other Members, such as my hon. Friend the Member for Swansea West (Geraint Davies), to talk about how we can have proper participation and ensure that our democracy is safe and that we hold the Government to account.

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

I reiterate the point I made earlier: I am always willing to meet hon. and right hon. Members, in part because of what it says in “Erskine May” about the responsibilities of the Leader of the House, which I am well aware of. That is why I have made it so clear that I expect Ministers to respond in a reasonably punctual way to Members’ letters and other communications. It is important that this House is respected by the Executive; that is absolutely fundamental.

I am sorry if I gave the impression that I will decide who speaks in debates. I certainly do not do that; that is decided on a daily basis by Mr Speaker. Terms of reference for any proposed changes would have to be decided by a motion that has to be passed by the House. It is a matter for the House to decide, as it will do. The Leader of the House does not have, or would want to have—certainly I would not want it—the ability to decide who speaks in debates. That is a matter for the Speaker on a daily basis and otherwise by a motion of the House.