20 Years of Devolution

Debate between David T C Davies and Hywel Williams

Thursday 11th July 2019 Commons Chamber

[David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con)]

I thank the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) for bringing forward this important debate, although I cannot see the past 20 years in quite the same positive light that he has set out. Slightly more than 20 years ago, I was part of the anti-Welsh Assembly no campaign. That was one of my first entrées into politics. We lost, but I felt as a democrat that it was important to respect the will of the people of Wales, so there was no suggestion afterwards that we should try to challenge the result in the courts or say that people had been tricked by Welsh Labour—although I think to some extent that they were; I will come back to that in a minute—or say that people had changed their minds the next day.

We simply respected the fact that the people of Wales had spoken, and I want to put on record right now as a Conservative and as somebody who opposed the Welsh Assembly 20 years ago that it would be absolutely wrong to try to undermine the Welsh Assembly, take away its powers or get rid of it in any way at all. I say that as somebody who was very strongly opposed to it 20 years ago. It would be wrong to do that because the people of Wales voted not once but twice to have a Welsh Assembly and it behoves us all as democrats to respect the voice of the people of Wales, to work with the National Assembly for Wales and to make sure the whole thing is a success. Similarly, had Scotland voted for independence in its referendum, we would have been expected, quite rightly, to respect the voice of the people of Scotland.

It is a bit of a disappointment to me that, having made this clear over the past 20 years, the Welsh Assembly Members who owe their jobs to a referendum that took place 20 years ago are now doing their utmost to try to ignore the will of the people of Wales in the subsequent referendum on Brexit, where a much larger number of people turned out and voted by a much clearer majority in favour of Brexit. I hope that the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire, who believes that we should to listen to the will of the people, will agree that Wales spoke clearly for Brexit, that Britain spoke clearly for Brexit and that Members of Parliament have an obligation to honour the result and bring it in in some way.

One could build an argument—one would be wrong to do so—against the Welsh Assembly on the basis that it has failed to deliver on the promises that were made 20 years ago. We were told that we would have a better health service, better education, a better economy, better transport and so on. The reality in Wales at least has been that we now have longer hospital waiting lists, longer responses and waits for ambulances, longer waits in accident and emergency units and less access to cancer drugs.

[Hywel Williams]

Will the hon. Gentleman clear up some confusion? He is referring to the Welsh Assembly as achieving or not achieving those aims, but clearly they are matters for the Welsh Government, who have been Labour since the inception of the Assembly.

[David T. C. Davies]

Absolutely; that is a very fair comment. I consider myself told off, and rightly so. The hon. Gentleman is correct to say that it is the Welsh Government who have failed on the health service. They have also failed on education—

--- Later in debate ---

[Hywel Williams]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[David T. C. Davies]

I will not, as I have apparently got only one minute left, and I am still on my first page.

There has been a failure on transport in Wales. There has also been a failure on the economy. Even the Economy Minister in the Welsh Government has said that we do not know what we are doing with it. There has also been a significant failure on value for money and an inability sometimes to see through the boasts and exaggerated claims that are made by people who are seeking grants. That is a matter of some disappointment to me, but of course it is actually Welsh Labour that is responsible for this, not the National Assembly for Wales. That is why I am looking forward to seeing Conservatives being elected into government at the next Welsh Assembly elections and, yes, if necessary, to working with members of Plaid Cymru and the Liberal Democrats to ensure that we get a change from the one-party rule that has dominated Wales for far too long.

By a strange irony, here I am 20 years later making an argument for more powers for the Welsh Assembly, because where there is a case to be made for it, I am happy to see the Assembly getting powers over issues such as air passenger duty, which is something that we recommended strongly in our report. It is a pity that I have not got time to get on to Brexit and to point out the obvious contradiction in the fact that, while the Scottish National party and Plaid Cymru rightly make points about Catalonia, it is the European Union that is opposed to regional entities such as Catalonia becoming nation states. The real supporter of devolution is the Conservative and Unionist party. Not only are we handing powers over to the Parliaments of Scotland and Wales, but we want to hand more powers over to them, because the biggest exercise in devolution is going on right now. We are taking powers away from Brussels and bringing them back to London, whereupon we will start to distribute them out to Edinburgh, to Cardiff, to Belfast and, of course, to the regions of England. So all those who support devolution and believe that power should be brought back closer to the people should also be supporting Brexit and democracy.

Autumn Budget as it Relates to Wales

Debate between David T C Davies and Hywel Williams

Wednesday 7th February 2018 General Committees

[Hywel Williams]

Rwy’n falch eithriadol o’r cyfle yma i siarad yn y ddadl hanesyddol hon. Fel pawb arall, rwy’n falch iawn o’r diwedd i gael siarad Cymraeg yn y Tŷ hwn yn Llundain. Cefais y cyfle i siarad Cymraeg o’r blaen, pan aeth yr Uwch Bwyllgor i Wrecsam dro yn ôl, ond mae siarad yr iaith yn San Steffan yn gam arwyddocaol pellach, wrth i’r awdurdodau yma yn Llundain ddygymod o’r diwedd â’r ffaith mai nid gwladwriaeth uniaith ydy’r Deyrnas Gyfunol.

Yn wir, yn gynyddol daw unieithrwydd cyhoeddus yn eithriad yng Nghymru, dwi’n credu. Heblaw am y dadleuon amlwg i mi fel unigolyn fod medru siarad Cymraeg, a hawl fy etholwyr i gael eu cynrychioli drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, mae elfen gref iawn o synnwyr cyffredin o blaid symud at sefyllfa lle mae cyfrwng ein trafodaethau ni yma yn adlewyrchu’r ffaith bod natur ieithyddol ein gwlad ni yn wahanol. Dylem adlewyrchu sut mae pethau yng Nghymru, ac mae medru siarad Cymraeg yn rhan o hynny.

Fy mwriad prynhawn yma ydy siarad yn fyr am gynigion y Canghellor ynghylch credyd cynhwyshol, ac yn wir—bydd Aelodau Llywodraeth yn falch iawn i glywed hyn—i groesawu’r newidadau hynny, cyn belled ag y maent yn mynd. Tydi nhw ddim yn mynd hanner digon pell i mi a, fel llawer o bobl sy’n cymryd diddordeb yn y maes yma, buaswn yn licio gweld y newidiadau yn mynd yn bellach. Tydi’r newidiadau ddim yn mynd hanner digon pell i bobl a fydd yn hawlio’r fudd-dal yn y dyfodol, wrth i gredyd cynhwysol ddod i fewn. A tydi nhw ddim yn mynd hanner pell i mi fel rhywun sydd yn cynrychioli pobl ac yn pwyso ar yr Adran Gwaith a Phensiynau am welliannau a newidiau.

Mae’r pryderon am y drefn newydd eisioes yn ddigon clir. Ar 9 Hydref y llynedd, yn nghwestiynnau’r Adran Gwaith a Phensiynau, gofynnais i’r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol, a oedd newydd gael ei benodi ar y pryd, pa gynnydd a wnaed wrth ddod â chredyd cynhwysol i fewn a lle oeddem ni arni hi. Bydd rhai Aelodau yn gwybod, wrth gwrs, bod peilot wedi cael ei redeg ers tro yn ardal Shotton a bod hynny’n cynrychioli tua 5% o’r boblogaeth sydd ar hyn o bryd yn medru hawlio credyd cynhwysol. Ateb yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol oedd bod y fudd-dal newydd yn dod i fwcwl yn unol â’r cynllun, ac rŷm ni’n gweld y cynllun hwnnw yn dod i fewn rwan.

Dywedais wedyn fod cryn gefnogaeth i egwyddorion credyd cynhwysol. Rwy’n credu bod yna gytundeb ar draws y Tŷ bod yr egwyddorion—sicrhau incwm a sicrhau bod pobl yn medru mynd i’r gwaith yn haws o lawer—yn dda iawn, ond yn ôl neb llai na Syr John Major, nodweddion dwyn credyd cynhwysol i fewn hyd yn hyn yw

“gweithredu bler, anhegwch cymdeithasol a diffug trugaredd”.

Efallai bod ei eiriau gwreiddiol yn y Saesneg yn taro’n galetach:

“operationally messy, socially unfair and unforgiving”.

Gofynnais i’r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol felly, fel cwestiwn atodol, i ohurio dwyn y cynllyn i fewn yn ei grynswth. Os na fedrai wneud hynny, roedd yna gwpwl o bethau roeddwn i eisiau iddo eu gwneud, sef dileu’r cyfnod aros gan wythnos a thalu’r budd-dal pob pythefnos yn hytrach na phob mis. Bydd Aelodau yn gyfarwydd â’r problemau a all godi hefo trio cyllido am fis ar swm gymharol fach. Wrth gwrs, mi oedd yna gyfnod aros lle roedd pobl yn disgwyl am wythnos heb gael budd-dal.

Bydd Aelodau yn gyfarwydd â dadl y Bonheddwr gwir anrhydeddus dros Chingford a Woodford Green (Mr Duncan Smith), sef awdur y drefn yma. Dywedodd y dylai credyd cynhwysol adlewyrchu’r byd gwaith: mae rhan fwyaf o bobl yn cael eu talu’n fisol, felly dylai’r fudd-dal fod yn fisol hefyd er mwyn eu paratoi i fynd i swydd. Wrth gwrs, mae hyn yn anwybyddu’r ffaith fod llawer yn debygol o fod ar gredyd cynhwysol am gyfnodau amhenodol—cyfnodau hir iawn—heb obaith am waith. Yn fwyaf sylfaenol, mae hyn yn anwybyddu anawsterau garw didoli symiau bach o incwm dros fis cyfan yn hytrach na dros wythnos neu pythefnos.

Dro yn ôl, rhedais surgery i gynghori pobl oedd yn gorfod ymdopi efo’r treth llofftydd—y taliad am lofft ychwanegol. Rhoddodd un ddynes restr o’i gwariant i mi. Roedd £1 ar waelod y rhestr. Gofynnais, “Be’ ’di’r bunt yna?” Atebodd, “Wel, ’dwi’n gorfod cerdded lawr i’r dre i siopa, ac unwaith pob pythefnos, ’dwi ddim yn cerdded yn ôl, ’dwi’n mynd ar y bys.” Dyna beth oedd y bunt. Mae pobl ar arian wythnosnol yn medru ymdopi yn rhyfeddol o fanwl hefo’r hyn o arian sydd ganddynt, yn bennaf wrth gwrs am nad oes gennyn nhw ddewis.

Ni chytunodd yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol i’m cais i ohirio cyflwyno’r budd-dal, ond dywedodd rhywbeth arwyddocaol: y byddid yn gwneud newidiadau pan ac os fydd angen, fesul tipyn. Roedd hynny’n rhywbeth reit bositif iddo ddweud: nad oedd popeth yn gwbl sefydlog, ac y gellir gweud newidiadau. A dyma ni—mae rhai newidiadau yn y Gyllideb, er rhai bychain ac annigonol ydyn nhw. Er hynny, mae nhw i’w croesawu.

Felly beth yw’r newidiadau? Daw y cyfnod disgwyl am fudd-dal i lawr o chwech wythnos i bump—o 42 diwrnod i 35. Fel bydd rhai Aelodau yn gwybod, telir y budd-dal yn fisol, ond rhaid disgwyl pythefnos ychwanegol ar y dechrau. Mae hyn wedi achosi problemau sylweddol yn barod. Natur y chwech wythnos oedd: pedair wythnos i wirio’r incwm—gan fod pobl am gael eu talu yn fisol, rhaid cael manylion incwm am fis—wedyn wythnos i brosesu ac wythnos i ddisgwyl. Mae’r wythnos i ddisgwyl wedi mynd. Roedd y rhan fwyaf ohonom sydd yn cymryd diddordeb yn y maes yma yn gwybod nad oedd yr wythnos ddisgwyl yn golygu fawr o ddim byd yn ymarferol.

(Translation) I am very pleased to have the opportunity to speak in this historic debate. Like everyone else, I am also very pleased finally to be able to speak Welsh here in Westminster. I have had the opportunity to speak Welsh before, when the Grand Committee went to Wrexham a while ago, but being able to speak Welsh in Westminster is a further significant step forward, as the authorities here in London finally come to terms with the fact that the United Kingdom is not a monolingual state.

In fact, monolingualism in Wales will become the exception. Apart from the obvious arguments that stop me as a Welsh speaker being able to speak Welsh, it also restricts the ability of my constituents to be represented through the medium of Welsh. There is a strong common sense element in favour of moving to a position where the medium of our discussions here reflects the fact that the linguistic nature of our country is diverse. We should be reflecting the situation in Wales, and speaking Welsh should be a part of that.

My intention this afternoon is to speak briefly about the Chancellor’s proposals on universal credit and—Government Members will be pleased to hear this—to welcome the proposed changes in so far as they go, although I would say that they do not go far enough. I think the same would be true of many people who take an interest in this area, who would like to see the changes go further. It is certainly not far enough for the people who will be claiming the benefit in the future, as universal credit comes in. It does not go far enough for me, as someone who represents people and presses on the Department for Work and Pensions for improvements in this regard.

The concerns about the new system are clear enough. On 9 October last year, in DWP questions, I asked the then Secretary of State, who was new at the time, having just been appointed, what progress he had made in bringing in universal credit and where we had reached. As some hon. Members will know, a pilot had been run in the area of Shotton. That represented about 5% of the population who can now claim universal credit. The response of the Secretary of State was that the new benefit was about to come in as expected, and we see the scheme coming into force now.

I then said that there was quite a bit of support for the principle behind universal credit. I think that there is agreement across the House that the principle of universal credit is a very good one, ensuring that people have an income and can go into work much more easily. The agreement on universal credit is in place, but none other than Sir John Major said, with regard to this matter, that the way that universal credit had been brought in up until now was chaotic and showed a lack of mercy. It perhaps comes across better in his own words:

“operationally messy, socially unfair and unforgiving”.

I therefore asked, as my supplementary question, for the scheme to be postponed as a whole. If that were not possible there were a couple of things that I wished the Department to do: to bring the waiting period down a week and to pay the benefit every fortnight instead of every month. Hon. Members will be aware of the problems that may arise from trying to budget for a month on a comparatively small sum. Of course, there was a waiting period where people could wait for a week without receiving any benefits.

Members will be familiar, of course, with the argument of the right hon. Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Mr Duncan Smith), who was the author of the system. He said that universal credit should reflect the working world: the majority of people are paid monthly, so the benefit should also be paid on a monthly basis, and that would prepare people for the world of work and getting a job. That ignores the fact that many people are likely to be on universal credit for periods that may not be defined, without any hope of getting work. More fundamentally, I believe that it ignores the difficulties of dealing with small sums over a month, rather than a week or a fortnight.

Some time ago, I ran a surgery to advise people who were dealing with the bedroom tax. A woman who came in with a list of expenditure that had £1 at the bottom. I asked, “What’s that £1 for?”, and she said, “Well, I have to walk down to town to shop. Once a fortnight, I don’t walk back. I take the bus.” That is what it was for. People on a weekly budget cope remarkably well, mainly because they have no other choice.

The Secretary of State did not agree with my proposal to delay or postpone bringing the benefit in, but he said something significant: changes will be made when necessary, as necessary and step by step. It was positive of him to say that the benefit is not entirely set in stone and that changes can be made. Now there are welcome changes in the Budget, although they are quite small and insufficient.

Those changes reduce the waiting period from six weeks to five weeks—that is, from 42 days to 35. Some hon. Members will know that the benefit is paid monthly, but that people have to wait an additional fortnight at the beginning, which has already caused significant problems. Those six weeks include four weeks to check income, because people are paid monthly so the details of their monthly income are needed, then a week for processing time and a week of waiting. That week of waiting has gone.

Most of us who take an interest in this subject know that that week of waiting meant very little and had no practical purpose.

[David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con)]

Mae’r Bonheddwr anrhydeddus yn gwneud pwynt pwysig, ond ’dwi’n siŵr ei fod yn gwybod bod unrhyw un gyda anawsterau ariannol yn gallu benthyg arian o’r Adran i sicrhau nad ydynt yn cael problemau. [Ymyrraeth.]

(Translation) The hon. Gentleman makes an important point, but I am sure he is aware that anyone with financial problems can borrow money from the Department to ensure that those problems are overcome. [Interruption.]

[Hywel Williams]

Mae’r Bonheddwr anrhydeddus yn gwneud pwynt da iawn, a byddaf yn sôn am hynny gyda hyn. Mae’n bosib cael taliad, ond fel dywedodd fy Nghyfaill anrhydeddus dros Dwyfor Meirionnydd o’i chadair, benthyciad yw hwnnw, nid taliad.

(Translation) The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. I will come to that in a moment, but I might as well say now that it is possible to have a payment beforehand, but that is a loan rather than a payment, as my hon. Friend the Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd said from a sedentary position.