Cities and Local Government Devolution [Lords] Bill

David Rutley Excerpts

Wednesday 21st October 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Betts]

There is a big difference in the Manchester case. I am not arguing that Manchester should have a mayor imposed on it. If Manchester wants that, that is a matter for it, but it is different. In Sheffield we have hybrid devolution, with transport going to the mayor, but the mayor is not going to cover the nine districts. The mayor will cover only four districts—the old south Yorkshire districts—so how are people to understand the devolution deal, which has one set of governance arrangements for economic powers and skills, and another set of governance arrangements for transport, where one set of governance arrangements covers four authorities, whereas the other set covers nine?

The whole purpose of combined authorities is to bring local authorities together on a voluntary basis to cover a travel to work area—the natural economic entity—yet transport, the mayor and the associated powers will not cover the whole travel to work area of Sheffield. This is a real dog’s dinner. It is not going to work, and it is certainly not going to be understood by the public.

That leads me on to my second point. There is a problem with mayoral imposition, which in Sheffield’s case will not cover all five areas. Other districts can choose to join the arrangements for mayors if they wish. My understanding—I may be wrong—is that the districts of north Derbyshire and north Nottinghamshire, which are part of the Sheffield city region, are going to join the combined authority, which they are part of, for the economic powers. However, for transport powers to be devolved to those areas through a mayor, those districts will not merely have to agree, but they will have to get the county, which is the transport authority, or two counties, to agree as well. Does the county have a veto over what happens to devolution in the Sheffield city region?

This is not workable. At the same time as the Sheffield city region has a mayoral possibility, Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire are looking at having a joint combined authority, which would have a mayor as well. As I understand it, the mayor can exist for the districts of north Derbyshire and north Nottinghamshire only if those districts agree to the county mayor for Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire being created. So they have a veto over that. At some stage, surely, Ministers have to take some responsibility for coming forward with proposals to sort out this mess, or it will stop devolution working effectively in these areas.

[David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con)]

As the hon. Member for Macclesfield on the other side of the Pennines, I understand the hon. Gentleman’s concerns and enjoy working with him on the all-party parliamentary group on national parks. Does he agree that one of the fundamental points of having a mayor is to achieve clear accountability? The lesson from London is that probably the greatest accountability the Mayor has is for transport. At a local level, surely much of the work needs to be done to bring the partnerships together. It cannot all be imposed by the Minister. It has to be about dialogue, which may sometimes be uncomfortable, at a local level as well.

[Mr Betts]

I understand that argument, and it would be a lot easier to accept it from the Government if there was clear accountability and a clear understanding of what was happening, and if I had not just had to explain the situation in Sheffield city region, which has neither clarity nor accountability. Transport arrangements are to be devolved to a mayor who does not cover the whole travel to work area. That is not clarity or consistency, and it will not work.

Big issues are involved. I see the hon. Member for Carlisle (John Stevenson) in his place. We had discussions in the Select Committee, of which he was a valuable member in the previous Parliament, and I know he has clear views about moving towards unitaries if we are to have a combined authority that works. Otherwise we will have districts, counties and combined authorities, as well as parishes in some areas. I am not sure that that amounts to easy-to-understand government. The hon. Member for Amber Valley (Nigel Mills) has raised some interesting issues. I am not sure about his solution, but there is a problem, for which Ministers have to accept some responsibility.

I realise that others wish to speak. On the amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham North, I hope the Government will listen to the idea of some sort of independent body to look at these issues. That was discussed by our Select Committee last time. If there is genuine disagreement between central Government and local government, an independent body could bring the two sides together and produce a report for Parliament to consider. In the end it is not just about Government agreeing these deals; it is about Parliament taking a view where there is disagreement. Even if Ministers are not minded to accept the amendment today, it is an interesting idea to which they might give some thought.

Finally, we cannot legislate for double devolution because in the end, devolution has to allow areas to do things their own way, but there is a role for Ministers, parliamentarians and the LGA to get the message across that devolution does not stop at the town hall door. Where powers are devolved to local authorities, it is for them to move those powers into communities and to engage with communities in a positive way to make devolution happen even further down the line.

--- Later in debate ---

[David Rutley]

I have great respect for my hon. Friend, who is indeed a great friend. Like him, I would absolutely love to see devolution succeed in Greater Manchester, in partnership with authorities in the counties around it, including East Cheshire unitary authority.

[Mr Brady]

I am glad to have enabled my hon. Friend to speak for himself.

Amendment 42 seeks a very simple and not terribly onerous change. It would simply require the Government to report annually on how they have exercised their functions in order to demonstrate that they have not themselves exercised any of the devolved functions that rightly belong with the combined authority or the mayoral authority. There might be better ways of doing this, and I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister will put forward his own proposals in due course. However, the underlying point is that although the Government have been very pleased to place obligations on local authorities through the process of forming agreements or deals, as the Secretary of State likes to term them, very little in the Bill as it stands provides any mechanism to hold the Government to account and ensure that they fulfil their side of the bargain. I think that would be welcomed by everybody who is an evangelist for devolution—as I am sure we all are.

The Minister alluded to amendments 43 and 44, which seek to provide an easier route for exit. I happily accept that, as the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish (Andrew Gwynne) said, it would be very difficult for any authority to leave a combined authority, especially a mayoral authority, at some point in the future. An enormous number of functions, agreements, financial obligations and so on will bind local authorities together, increasingly so as the years pass, and therefore no local authority would do this lightly. However, the ability to leave, should the devolution arrangements not work in practice for any one or more of the local authorities in an area, is, in some ways, the ultimate guarantee that no abuse should take place. It is particularly important that we should have such a safeguard if we reach the end of our deliberations without a referendum lock in place. If the public are not to be given the choice as to whether they want to have the elected mayor and this new structure of governance put in place over them, surely there must be a safeguard so that if, at a future date, the new arrangements were not working for the people of Trafford, Bury, Stockport or Bolton, they could seek to leave, without penalty, to find a new way of providing services and representation to the local community.

Amendment 51 calls for a referendum test to be passed. This also relates to Government amendment 4. I think the only reason the Government are so determined to overturn the amendment passed in another place which seeks to prevent conditionality—local authorities being told they are allowed to have devolution only if they accept the model of an elected mayor as a condition—is that negotiations in Greater Manchester have moved as far as they have under those conditions. It seems wrong that the Government are expecting local authorities to accept a particular model of governance as the price for this kind of devolution settlement, particularly if the Government do not have the self-confidence to consult the people and to believe in their own argument such that they could persuade the public that it is something they ought to welcome. This is the ultimate test of the Government’s arguments. The Minister is a very persuasive man, as we have seen in the Chamber today. I am certain that with his enthusiasm, charm and powers of persuasion, he could go out and sell this proposition to the people of Greater Manchester, and perhaps to those in Sheffield and other parts of the country. I wish that he would have the confidence in his own abilities that we all have.