Referendum on Scottish Independence

David Linden Excerpts

Monday 13th November 2017 Westminster Hall

[Martyn Day]

I will come back to the hon. Lady in one moment. If we believe in a parliamentary democracy using the system that Westminster uses—I have a lot of complaints about that and want a proportional system of representation at all elections—then we have to accept that a simple majority is a win under this democratic approach.

[David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP)]

Does my hon. Friend see the irony that the Government party, whose Members have turned up in large numbers here—I wish they would do so in debates on universal credit, for example—argues for democracy, but its candidate for Perth and North Perthshire lost at the election so was stuffed into the House of Lords, and is of course the Secretary of State’s understudy in the Scotland Office?

[Martyn Day]

I do indeed see the irony and I oppose the House of Lords as a whole on principle, not just on that point.

To continue with the substantive part of my speech— I am sure that I will provide many opportunities for everyone else to intervene—

--- Later in debate ---

[John Lamont (Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Bailey. As we have already heard, this debate is about two conflicting petitions. One calls for a re-run of the vote we had in 2014 and was signed by around 38,000 people, while the other reflects the views of the vast majority of Scots, who say, “We’ve had one vote. Let’s move on,” and is signed by 221,000 people, including more than 3,000 of my constituents. That is a symbol of what is abundantly clear: most Scots do not want another independence referendum. Poll after poll shows that support for separation has fallen. Poll after poll shows that the majority of Scots, including many yes voters, do not want another divisive referendum.

This year, 500,000 voters deserted the Scottish National party because of its obsession with having another go. I would have thought by now that the SNP would have got the message. Hon. Members across the parties who are here today know one thing to be true: there is no demand from the Scottish people for another independence referendum. Since the First Minister made her bid for another referendum earlier this year, not a single opinion poll has shown demand for one. It is perhaps surprising, then, to see so many SNP Members here today to make their case for independence. Given the pressure that their Westminster party leader is under, many will ask whether it is just an audition for the SNP’s next Westminster leader.

[David Linden]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[John Lamont]

I will make a bit more progress.

I do not dispute that the debate over our country’s future during the 2014 referendum was lively. It encouraged passions the likes of which had not been seen in our democratic process. It encouraged debate, and encouraged voter engagement and turnout the likes of which we will probably never see again, but it also divided. It divided streets, villages, cities, communities and towns. It divided friends and families.

That debate also caused uncertainty. People decided not to invest in our country, not to buy houses in our country or move there until the constitutional future of Scotland had been settled. Because of that and my belief in our United Kingdom, one of my key promises to voters in the borders in the general election was that I would oppose a second independence referendum. I therefore stand here today to urge the SNP Scottish Government to listen to borderers and to listen to Scotland. There was a time when the SNP listened to voters:

“To propose another referendum in the next parliament without strong evidence that a significant number of those who voted No have changed their minds would be wrong and we won’t do it.”

Those are not my words, but the words of the First Minister herself. Every day that the Scottish Government refuse to take another referendum off the table is another day on which the First Minister breaks that promise.

I do not shy away from making the case for Scotland’s place within the United Kingdom—a case that is stronger now than it was in 2014. I have no doubt that people in my constituency would back the United Kingdom in even greater numbers if there were another vote, but now is not the time to have that debate again. I believe that people are opposed to another referendum for two reasons. First, they had a long constitutional debate, which resulted in a fair and decisive referendum with a record turnout. Both sides agreed to respect the result. For many of us, that vote was not a pleasant experience; it was divisive and damaging. People do not want to go through that all over again. The other reason people are against another independence referendum is that even the threat of another vote is damaging our economy and distracting the Scottish Government.

The Scottish economy has grown by 0.5% in the last year, compared with 1.5% across the whole United Kingdom. Small businesses in Scotland are significantly less confident about the future than their UK counterparts. In an already uncertain time across the UK, companies north of the border face a whole extra layer of volatility. In the borders, the uncertainty is even more damaging because so many jobs and businesses are based just across the border in England. The threat of another referendum makes it more difficult for Scotland to secure a good Brexit deal, because Scotland’s two Governments are fighting internally and not together. Meanwhile, the things the Scottish Government has power over, such as Scotland’s schools, hospitals and police services, are falling behind.

The SNP needs to come to terms with losing the referendum. The SNP needs to accept that the people have had their say. The SNP needs to acknowledge that the threat of another vote is harming Scotland’s economy. The SNP needs to listen to the borderers. The SNP needs to listen to Scots, and the SNP needs to remove its threat of another referendum.

--- Later in debate ---

[Bill Grant]

It is there to be seen. I am sorry if the hon. Gentleman cannot see the comparison I am making, but it is clear.

Given that we are going through the process of Brexit, we would do well to be a cohesive United Kingdom instead of sniping from the wings, which is constantly done by the SNP. One of the phrases coined during the referendum was, “Proud to be Scots. Delighted to be united”. It is as sound today as it was then. That sums up patriotism in Scotland, which is about the land of our birth or our adopted homeland and being a constituent part of a larger entity—namely, the United Kingdom. That is what we voted for, and that is what we have achieved. We have only just commemorated the tragic loss of lives in various wars where military personnel from all over the United Kingdom and beyond came together to fight for a common goal of peace, with the aspiration that we would live harmoniously together in the future. I will not let them down.

The SNP Government in Scotland are not the Government of yes; they are actually the Government of no. They say no to nuclear power and a nuclear deterrent, but they will hide behind the NATO shield. They say no to fracking, but they will import to the INEOS site in Grangemouth. They say no to child chastisement. They say no to parenting, because they will do it through the named person scheme. They say no to school progress—Scotland comes in at number 27 in the PISA league, behind Lithuania. They have no chief constable and no chair of the Scottish Police Authority. There is no success for Police Scotland or for my former occupation, the fire service, with fire stations closing. They say no to lower taxes.

[David Linden]

The hon. Gentleman seems to be making some disparaging remarks about Police Scotland. Does he not understand that recorded crime in Scotland is at a 43-year record low, including in Ayrshire?

[Bill Grant]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. I never mentioned crime statistics. I mentioned two facts.

[David Linden]

It is at a 43-year low.

[Bill Grant]

No, the statement I made was nothing to do with that. I said that Scotland had no chief constable. Mr Gormley is on gardening leave. Is that correct? Yes, he is. There is no chair of the Police Authority. The SNP Government say no to lower taxes. Despite the First Minister’s parents buying their own home in Scotland, the Government say no to people buying their council houses. They have no economic case for separation. They say no to growing the economy. Finally, the only no they do not understand is no to a second referendum.

--- Later in debate ---

[Alan Brown]

I would argue that more boats were promised for a future independent Scotland. The hon. Gentleman mentioned 30 years of work. Does he agree with his union colleagues who said that the way that the orders have been placed is a betrayal of the shipyards and of the promises made?

Another broken promise is guaranteed continued investment in the new renewables sector. The Conservative party pulled the feed-in tariffs one year early. Solar and onshore wind companies are no longer allowed to bid in contract for difference auctions, which has resulted in a 95% drop in investment in the renewables industry and put one in six jobs at risk.

Scotland’s budget has been cut by £3.5 billion. To date, Westminster has refused to introduce a VAT exemption for Scottish fire and police services. Scottish farmers have been ripped off by the UK Government, which is holding on to nearly £200 million in common agricultural policy convergence uplift. Those are illustrations of how Westminster looks after Westminster’s interests and does not consider Scotland’s needs.

[David Linden]

My hon. Friend is speaking eloquently. Does he share my surprise that when the Conservative party had to hang on to power, it was more than happy to send that much money to Northern Ireland to keep a majority?

[Alan Brown]

I agree fully. Now we are hearing that it is not to buy the votes of the Democratic Unionist party; it is based on Northern Ireland’s needs. Yet there is no process for the Government to engage properly with the Scottish Parliament and consider Scotland’s needs. They do not ask the Scottish Finance Secretary. In fact, another £600 million has just been taken from the rail budget. If the Government are considering Northern Ireland’s needs, they should be able to do the same for other devolved Administrations.

Before I finish, I want to tackle the “once in a generation” issue. I have re-read that interview, and Alex Salmond qualified his remarks by continuing to repeat that it was his view. He then said:

“In my view this is a once in a generation—perhaps even a once in a lifetime—opportunity.”

That was his view. It is amazing how the Tories are now clinging to Alex Salmond’s views and saying that they must be held to. I challenge any of them to intervene and explain to me how that view of Alex Salmond can be binding on a future Scottish Government when it was a personal view. He might actually be proven right—