EU Referendum Rules

Debate between David Lammy and Chuka Umunna

Monday 5th September 2016 Westminster Hall

[Mr Chuka Umunna (Streatham) (Lab)]

I want to add two points, and to ask my right hon. Friend whether he agrees with them. One is that, whatever one’s view about whether there should be a vote in the House on triggering article 50, there should at least be a debate. The second is that whether to vote on article 50 is in a sense academic, because we will have to repeal the European Communities Act 1972 to give effect to our leaving the European Union. That will involve multiple votes, which will have knock-on impacts on existing legislation, which will need to be changed.

[Mr Lammy]

My hon. Friend is right. That is the case, which is why it was breathtaking to hear that Britain will not be discussing Europe for much longer. If we exit the European Union, this House is about to be consumed with legislation that will probably be with us for more than a decade. One Whitehall Department alone, the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, has 1,200 pieces of legislation that would need to be repealed. The task ahead for the nation is gargantuan. We are perhaps talking about the sort of effort involved in reconstruction after the war, or something comparable to the birth or the loss of empire.

Gangs and Serious Youth Violence

Debate between David Lammy and Chuka Umunna

Thursday 3rd March 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mr Lammy]

My hon. Friend is completely right. What is unfortunately being said about the moral compass of these young people is incredibly worrying. They are impressionable; they are young. For reasons that my hon. Friend the Member for Streatham raised, when I say that they are impressionable, I am referring to the fact that we live in a society that has prioritised choice for the individual above everything else. We live in a society where people have the choice of whether to be exposed to quite serious violence on social media, on television and in parts, although not all, of the games industry. It is hard for modern parents, however much money they have, to distinguish between access to those images and that impression.

We therefore have young people stabbing others, almost as if they do not realise the consequences. It is quite, quite bizarre that someone might not realise that puncturing skin and causing blood loss might lead to a loss of life. I have seen images—they are on YouTube, so we can see them—of young people being stabbed continuously and it being almost like a pastime. My hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, Deptford is right that much of this goes completely unreported. It never turns up in our hospitals. It is solved by self-medication. People go to the pharmacy and get their band aid. It is sorted out in the community, so there is an indication that this violence is going down.

My hon. Friend the Member for Dulwich and West Norwood (Helen Hayes) raised something else that is new and worrying and that we would not associate, historically, with mods and rockers or Dickensian times: the phenomenon of women, including young women, being at the centre of the action. Again, as some of the older individuals who run the gangs have been locked up—actually, let us be clear that they can still run a gang from prison—they bring in the younger folk. Why? Young folk are less likely to get a sentence if they are caught. They also bring in the women on the estates and prey on the young women. Historically, the Children’s Commissioner has done tremendous work to raise issues such as the sexualisation of women and the way in which women become the victims of gang activity. Someone can hide the knife in their girlfriend’s bedroom or hide their stash with her. She can walk quietly over to the opposite estate and perhaps not get detected or picked up in quite the same way, so the profile is changing.

[Mr Umunna]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for giving way during his powerful speech. The issue is not just girls and women concealing weapons or being used to conceal weapons, but the straightforward exploitation of women in our communities, who are passed from one group of young lads to another. That just does not get talked about nearly enough in my view, as my fellow Lambeth MP, my hon. Friend the Member for Dulwich and West Norwood (Helen Hayes), said.

[Mr Lammy]

Absolutely; there is a deeply disturbing pattern in the sexualisation of these women, and they are victims. That issue has not been picked up, as has been debated in other places.

All of this leads to a disturbing combination of violence, sexual activity, real victims, both young and female, and criminality in our areas. It is not just Members who are saying that. Dean Haydon, head of Scotland Yard’s homicide and major crime command, said that the presence of 13 and 14-year-olds on the gangs matrix was concerning and warned of exploitation. It is very worrying that 17 men aged 18 or under were fatally stabbed in London just last year.

The Minister published a strategy in January 2016. I ask her as gently as I can, does this problem merit an eight-page strategy or something more considerable? At the back of the strategy in annex A, there is a list of the constituencies that are described as being “Ending Gang and Youth Violence areas”. The first question I have in relation to that is what we mean by “ending”. Are we really dedicated to ending this problem?

I have been in the House for 16 years and this story began around about the time that I came here. In 1994 or ’95, at about the time that Tony Blair became the leader of the Labour party and John Major was coming to the end of his leadership of the Conservative party, we would not have had a debate about youth violence and gangs. It just was not present in the British lexicon at that point in our history. Towards the end of the ’90s, we started to see an upsurge in gun violence and Operation Trident began. I thought this was inappropriate, but it was termed black-on-black violence. That morphed into the strategies that we saw, particularly under Charles Clarke’s leadership as Home Secretary, under the Tony Blair Government. After the riots under the coalition Government, there was also an upsurge.

Why am I talking about annex A? We have to decide whether we want to end this problem. I am afraid that it is going in the wrong direction. I have talked about the young people. I have talked about the women. I have talked about the violence. Other hon. Members have mentioned trauma. Let us look at the geography. In April 2012, the areas that were identified were places like Hackney, Haringey, Islington, Lewisham, Liverpool, Manchester, Nottingham and Sandwell. Hon. Members will not be surprised that those were the areas we wanted to deal with. By December 2012, it had moved on to include Hammersmith and Fulham, Merton and Leeds. When it got to Barnet, Bromley, Havering and Thanet, it started to get quite worrying. Last year, it included Basildon, Grimsby, Harrow, High Wycombe, Southampton and Swindon.

What is going on here? Something that was urban and inner-city has become incredibly suburban. Murders that were traditionally black have become white. It is reflecting on all our young people and they are being caught up in this violence. The picture is not unique to particular communities, but is spreading. There is a geographic spread.

I therefore come back to whether this problem is worth just an eight-page strategy of very anodyne statements:

“We will continue to prioritise the reduction of gang related violence including tackling knife crime.”

How? By when? Local areas are encouraged to continue to follow the approach of

“bringing key partners together and developing an effective local response to gang violence.”

How? Who is going to do that? How do we know what is best practice? We have evidence that some of the gangs straddle different local authorities. There is real spread. Gangs in London—adults, actually—are running young people into the suburbs to sell drugs. How does the strategy in Lewisham or Haringey relate to the strategy in Kent? What is the pattern? That is not mentioned.

Apparently, the Ministry of Justice has brought together analysts

“to examine the evidence base”

and

“ensure responses will be more coherent”,

but how is that analysis being shared? Where do I get hold of it? How are we coming together to deal with it? It does not feel that there is enough of a grip on a spreading epidemic that is taking the lives of young people and inflicting real pain and hardship on differing communities. I believe that is why my hon. Friend the Member for Streatham secured today’s debate.

What is required? We need much better understanding of best practice, and we have to get into the issue of violence in society. Any social worker or youth offending team worker will tell us that domestic violence is often going on in the homes of the people involved. We have the troubled families initiative, but what impact is it having on the problem that we are discussing, given that it seems to be getting worse? The statistics are worrying. The figures up to January 2016 show that there has been an 18% increase in assault with injury and a 22% increase in violence against the person in London. Data from the London ambulance service—we know that there are profound problems with its data, so they are not necessarily the best—show a 9% increase in assaults involving knives. Knife crime is up by 14% in London as a whole over the past 12 months. The situation is urgent, yet it is not figuring in our national conversation and responses in the way that it ought to.

After the 2011 riots, there was huge fanfare, because the Mayor of London, now the hon. Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip (Boris Johnson)—he is obviously very good at fanfare—brought in Bill Bratton, the commissioner from New York. Hon. Members will remember that he had all the strategies and plans, but what happened to them? There has been some discussion of the model used in Glasgow, where there was a significant problem. What bearing does what Glasgow has done with its violence reduction unit have on the Government’s plans? We have also heard about what has gone on in Chicago and in Boston. The ideas to end the problem are out there, and there are solutions, but where is the coherent strategy to deal with it?

I am sorry to challenge the strategy document, but to people living in or representing one of the areas affected it feels like a civil service exercise, not the deliberate action that we will require. We particularly need not enforcement but diversion activities, especially for our very young souls.

Gangs and Youth Violence: London

Debate between David Lammy and Chuka Umunna

Friday 29th January 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mr Umunna]

I could not agree more with my hon. Friend. We have worked together on the issue since I have been in the House, and I pay tribute to her for continuously shining a light on what is happening in her constituency and across London.

I do not want to say any more about the case of my Somali constituents, except to highlight that I have written to Ministers about the family in detail, and I ask—I beg—that Ministers exercise their discretion to grant my constituent’s two sons in particular the appropriate papers, which they do not have at the moment, so that they may travel back to Somalia to be with their mother, as the family wishes.

The case illustrates that for all the promises that have been made and all the attempts that local government and national Governments of different political persuasions have made to deal with the problem—I am not making party political points today—we still have a major problem of youth violence and gang culture, which is having an impact on a small minority of our youngsters in inner-city areas such as mine. The Evening Standard’s “Frontline London” campaign has done a lot to shine a light on that, and it is reporting today yet another murder of one of our teenagers on London’s streets.

According to Citizens Report, a not-for-profit independent organisation that carries out data research in this area, 17 teenagers lost their lives to gang and youth violence in London last year. That is an increase on the 11 young people who lost their lives in 2014. It is true that it is not the same level that we saw in about 2008-09—in 2008, 29 teenagers lost their lives on the streets of London—but let us be clear that one life lost is one too many.

Much of the violence is perpetrated by young people who are deemed to be gang-affiliated. Last year’s report on gangs and youth crime by the Home Affairs Committee, of which I am a member, noted that there is no comprehensive national figure for the number of gangs or the number of young people affiliated or associated with them. Some question whether we should even use the term “gang”. What does it mean? I am grateful to the Centre for Crime and Justice Studies for what it has said about that. However, if we are using that term for the purposes of this debate—I accept that maybe we should not—the Metropolitan police’s latest intelligence is that there are 225 recognised gangs in London, comprising about 3,600 gang members. Those people mainly span the ages of 16 to 24, but I know of children much younger than that—I use the word “children” deliberately —who are involved with groups perpetrating acts such as we are discussing.

[Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab)]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for championing the issue and securing the debate. Does he recognise that the gangs matrix profile shows that, although older young people are being picked up, that is driving down the profile of those who carry knives? Twelve and 13-year-olds are carrying knives for older individuals. That really needs to be examined.

[Mr Umunna]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for raising that issue. He is absolutely right. In addition to age is the fact that, increasingly, vulnerable girls and young women become wrapped up in this and are used and abused and exploited sexually. In the short time we have this afternoon, it is impossible to set out all the reasons why young people end up getting involved in serious youth violence, but there are common themes. My right hon. Friend has spoken about that many times.

Corporate Boards (Diversity)

Debate between David Lammy and Chuka Umunna

Wednesday 28th October 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Umunna]

I am afraid that there are simply too many people out there with the talent and ability who are not being appointed. That is the reality of the situation in 2015.

[Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab)]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for all that he is saying, and I congratulate him on his engagement, which was announced in the last few days.

Does my hon. Friend agree that this is not special pleading? If we look overseas to America, we see that they have made huge strides with the appointment of African-Americans and Latinos to boards. That increases the diversity of talent, and most pioneering companies understand that to be the case.

[Mr Umunna]

I could not agree more with my right hon. Friend, and I thank him for his best wishes. On the point that he makes, he and I represent very similar constituencies, and we cannot carry on like this. When my young black constituents ask me what they should consider doing in the future, I want to be able to point to people who look like them in the boardrooms, to inspire them to think that they can do it too. In 2015 there are far too few people who I can point to and give as an example.