Health Bill (Fifteenth sitting)

Dave Robertson Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 9th July 2026 Public Bill Committees

[Dr Caroline Johnson (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)]

I rise to speak to new clauses 14, 79 and 80, tabled by the Liberal Democrats. New clause 14 would require the Secretary of State, within six months, to establish a statutory target for healthy life expectancy in England and then to produce a strategy every two years to meet that target. This is not the first time the House has heard about life expectancy targets; as I am sure you will remember, Ms Lewell, the previous Government’s 2022 levelling-up White Paper talked about narrowing the gap in healthy life expectancy between the areas where it is highest and lowest, and aimed for healthy life expectancy to rise.

As the hon. Member for Winchester said, life expectancy has increased quite dramatically over the last century, but that is largely due to improvements in child mortality. That is a good thing, but it is worth looking at how healthy life expectancy is calculated. The Sullivan method starts by looking at mortality rates over a specific timeframe for a specific population, and then takes data from a cross-sectional study where people are asked to rate their own health, multiplies them together and produces a figure for healthy life years. Therefore, the main element that separates healthy life expectancy from unhealthy life expectancy is survey responses; it is not a clinical metric. If somebody on a huge amount of medication and treatment feels healthy, they are healthy. If someone on very minor treatment feels unhealthy, they are unhealthy. It is a self-reported measure.

The Government’s website says that if mortality improves by 2%, healthy life expectancy increases a very small amount; if self-reported feeling healthy goes up 2%, there is a much bigger increase in healthy life expectancy. We want people not just to live longer but to live well, but it is a case of how we measure it and how we ensure that there are no perverse incentives. We should look at it over time in the same individuals. How do people feel when they get up in the winter, when it is cold, dark, raining or icy? They may feel less healthy than when the sun is shining, it is the weekend or England have won the world cup.

The Government’s own figures show that musculoskeletal health is particularly important. Musculoskeletal conditions are prevalent among 17.2% of the population, and people with them are three times more likely to have self-reported ill health. We have asked before if the Government will introduce a modern service framework on musculoskeletal disease, having scrapped our long-term conditions strategy. I would be grateful if the Minister could say whether the Government have given more consideration to that and are now willing to do an MSF on musculoskeletal health.

New clause 79 would require the Government to create a committee across Government, including the Prime Minister, all Cabinet members and one Minister from each Department. The idea behind the new clause—that we need to work together—is important, but I would be grateful for the Minister’s comments on how feasible, practical and effective that would be.

Finally, new clause 80 concerns the duty to promote public health. Of course, it is the Minister’s duty to do his or her job, and part of that is promoting public health. What does the Minister think the practical effects of that new clause would be on bureaucracy in Departments?

[Dave Robertson (Lichfield) (Lab)]

It is always a pleasure to see you in the Chair, Ms Lewell. I will speak briefly on new clauses 79 and 80. I really like the intent of these new clauses, and the idea of Government working better and more together, public health being more of an agenda, and trying to get people working together in that framework. I am pretty sure that every Member in the House would support that. I do, however, have some serious concerns about the wording.

New clause 79 proposes a new committee, whose membership would include at least one Minister from each Department and all Cabinet Ministers—I presume that that is in addition, so it would be all Cabinet members plus one other Minister from each Department, which makes it seem like quite an unwieldy committee. There comes a point when a committee, if it has 70 people in it, ceases to be a committee, particularly when it will also need to be chaired, have clerks and have various people in the room. I have concerns about its size. I also have concerns about the frequency with which it would meet, and the requirement that every single Cabinet Minister must attend a minimum of three times a year, which is the implication of the wording.

[Dr Prinsley]

Public health used to be clearly under the aegis of the national health service. Some years ago, public health officers became employees of the local authorities, and the thing became somewhat separated from the NHS. Does my hon. Friend agree that we must join public health more closely to the activities of the national health service? Public health was at the very foundations of the national health service. I do not know whether other Members have, like me, read A. J. Cronin’s famous book, “The Citadel”, which describes the health service’s origins; in fact, I understand it was the book that the original politicians had all read. It has a marvellous description of a typhus epidemic, caused by an infected drain running down the middle of a street in a little Welsh mining village. The doctors had been completely unable to get any of the authorities to deal with it, so one night—they were ex-military—they put a little dynamite in the drain and blew the whole thing up. That is well described in the book, and it just shows how public health was absolutely integrated into the foundational principles of the national health service.

[Dave Robertson]

My hon. Friend makes an important point about the centrality of public health to the founding of the NHS. Earlier in Committee, I said that the NHS was the greatest gift the Labour party had ever given the country, and I fundamentally believe that. He is absolutely right to mention the centrality of public health in that process. I also thank him for his recommendation of a book to read over recess—that is always a pleasure.

To return to new clause 79, I want to focus on what we are asking when we say that all Cabinet members have to attend this new committee. That would include the Secretary of State for Defence, and although I understand cross-Government working and the need for Departments to work more closely together, I am scratching my head over what actions we expect the Secretary of State for Defence to take to support public health, and especially over the fact that they will be required to attend this committee a minimum of three times a year with, in my reading of the wording, another Defence Minister.

[Dr Chambers]

I pay tribute to the Royal Army Veterinary Corps. It does good work in trying to eradicate rabies in countries with street dogs, as part of hearts-and-minds engagement. We can work public health into pretty much any Department.

[Dave Robertson]

I absolutely join the hon. Member in thanking those service personnel who do so much good around the world, but I wonder whether it is appropriate to ask the Secretary of State for Defence to focus on public health. It is absolutely right that the Defence Department could do things, but does the Secretary of State need to be so centrally involved in this committee that they will have to attend three times a year, in addition to another Minister, who will have to attend a minimum of four times a year? Yes, a variety of Departments would be able to do that.

[Dr Chambers]

Just to blow my own trumpet, my greatest academic achievement was getting correspondence published in Nature on the impact of conflict on antimicrobial resistance. It might interest Members to know that, in Ukraine, 80% of wounds have novel bacteria that are displaying multi-drug resistance, which has become a limiting factor in getting soldiers back on to the frontline. We are trying to reframe issues such as antimicrobial resistance as national security and defence issues, rather than purely public health issues.

[Dave Robertson]

I very much appreciate that intervention, and I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on getting published in a very important journal. I am not in any way saying that the Secretary of State should not have any regard—[Interruption.] Now that he has made a joke, I want to say that I think he looks like a trombonist, rather than a trumpeter.

There is a very important point to draw out here. Although Departments can think about the public health impacts of the work that they undertake—I am sure many Ministers will do so—I am not sure there needs to be such a requirement to focus on public health for the Ministry of Defence, which obviously has a very significant, serious role.

New clause 80 would require all Ministers to have regard to public health. I really appreciate and value that—I think this is a good debate for us to have—but if the Minister for investment has managed to secure an investor to save a large business that is essential to the economy of an area, do I want them to be held up by having to demonstrate that the investment will ensure public health? I am not sure I do. A lot of decisions have to be made very quickly. I am not going to go through a long list of Ministers; we would all be here until next week. I just think the wording of the new clause is too broad, and I am not sure I can support it in its current form because it would place too much of a requirement on too many Departments to focus too much on areas that are not their core responsibilities.

[Joe Robertson (Isle of Wight East) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to serve with you in the Chair, Ms Lewell. I find myself unequal to the level of analysis and detail that the hon. Member for Lichfield brought to public health in the Ministry of Defence.

I will add just a few brief thoughts. The good intention of extending the life expectancy of the people in this country—although my hon. Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham made the good point that it is about living well, not just for a long time—is not always best served by creating committees, and additional duties, reports and responsibilities in legislation.

The hon. Member for Winchester argued—I paraphrase, but it is a matter of record—that he would like all Departments to have an eye on the health of the nation. That sounds sensible. There are other things that I would hope all Ministers have an eye on in everything they do, such as the wealth of the nation and inequality, but I would not advocate for embedding those things—I hope they would come with good governance, public duty and responsibility—in legislation as a duty, a committee, a set of meetings and a report. Indeed, it is things done with good intentions that lead to growing bureaucracy, which slows down decision making and requires more people to be employed to discharge those duties at a growing cost to the public purse. It is something that western democracies do all too well, and not always for the good. I would not want this well-intended set of new clauses to lead to growing bureaucracy with very little benefit. The benefit that the hon. Gentleman wants to see, which I agree with, can be best delivered in other ways.

--- Later in debate ---

[Karin Smyth]

I am not party to the negotiations. That is above my pay grade, like the conversation yesterday that the hon. Gentleman alluded to. I will get back to him on any outstanding questions, as the Department will to the Select Committee with other details.

[Dave Robertson]

To quote the Precision Health Technologies Accelerator at the University of Birmingham, very close to my Lichfield constituency, its leadership has been supportive of the removal of tariffs from pharmaceuticals, saying that the introduction of the tariffs could lead to

“supply chains collapsing and patients suffering.”

That is an enormous growth opportunity for the West Midlands combined authority, for Birmingham and for the wider region. There have been a lot of discussions, but I wanted to make sure that the views of organisations that will benefit are on the record, because this will be so beneficial for my region.

[Karin Smyth]

My hon. Friend clearly highlights the advantages for his constituents and the importance, particularly for that university and universities across the country, of such outward-facing arrangements, which benefit constituencies in many ways, not only through employment, but through the pharmaceuticals and medical devices, and so on, that help all our constituents.

New clause 76 specifically references the trade arrangement between the United States and the United Kingdom. That landmark partnership with the United States Government on pharmaceuticals pricing and tariffs is in the best interest of UK patients, supporting the NHS and the economy. As a result of the changes to the UK’s medicines pricing, NHS patients will get improved access to lifesaving treatments. New medicines have already been recommended under the updated approach, including a brain cancer drug available to patients as young as 12 and a last-resort treatment for a rare, aggressive stomach cancer—something that I think the entire House and the Committee would support.